[WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (Full Version)

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Foma -> [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/24/2014 2:43:36 PM)

Hello Distant Worlds Community!

Avid new player here and short time lurker. I discovered Distant Worlds about one month ago while I was searching the Internet for good 4x titles. After having watched a lot of Lets Play videos and read through a lot of reviews I decided to give this game a try. I was not dissappointed. Soon I purchased all of the expansions and started diving into the depths of this game. I really like it.

One thing I found a little boring though was that immediately after you researched the first Hyperdrive Technology you could basically get to every point in the galaxy without too much trouble. There was a thread by User Osito in which the issue was discussed:


Cant post the link. The thread is called:

"Right! Let's talk about ship range." - 5/9/2014 9:23:14 PM


Now that DW:Universe got released yesterday I played with the idea of rebalancing the Energy Tech Tree, particularly the section with the different drives and their values.
After spending an hour or two reading through the Modding Manual and playtesting with some altered values, I decided to give this rebalancing project a try. So what will this modification be about?


1. The issues:

Traveling from one point of the galaxy to another one is too easy once you pass the Warpfield Bubble/ Shadows era. There is no real feeling of continuous improvement to your hyperspace drives since you can already cross the entirety of a 15x15 sector galaxy with the first available Hyperdrive (Gerax Hyperdrive).
Any following improvements to the hyperdrives add mostly just speed. The different types of drives which are unlocked at Tier 3 (Highspeed/ Fast Jump/ Efficient drives) are too similar to have any real effect on your choice of a hyperdrive. In almost all of my games, the High Speed Warpdrive (Equinox Drive) is the component of choice. The reason for this, is the above mentioned issue. Getting to places faster is almost always more beneficial than saving a fraction of fuel, or being able to initiatie a jump a lot faster.

Another thing that bothered me were that researching of some improvements made no real sense. Good examples for this are the techs "Jump Sequence Optimization" found at Tier 3 under drives and "Advanced Proton Ionization" found at Tier 3 under Engines. These are both inferior to the other techs you have available on that same tier.

The last issue I felt needed some attention was the reactor tree. As it stands right now, the tech tree for reactors splits up into two different reactors requiring different fuels each (Caslon and Hydrogen). The lategame tiers however combine both techbranches making the Hydrogen Reactor the best reactor ingame. A lot of players probably already use one type of reactor (e.g. Caslon reactors) for the private sector ships, and the other one for military ships. The only reason to use Caslon reactors in lategame is to minimize the demand conflict between private and military ships.


2. The mod:

Energy Techtree Rebalanced is an attempt to rebalance and restructure the Energy & Construction Tech tree.


3. The goals:

1. Rebalance Hyperdrives to give more of a feeling of continuous technological advancement and to make design choices matter more
2. Rebalance Thrusters to make them more different
3. Rebalance Reactors to again to differentiate them more
4. Streamline Techbranches to eliminate obsolete techs (Hyperdrive/ Thruster/ Reactor branches)


4. The philosophy:

Hyperdrives:

Each improvement to the Hyperdrive should be balanced. This means that the drives should gradually open up the reach of your ships in the galaxy. Probably about 1 to 2 sectors per improvement on a ship with 4-8 fuel cells.
The different Hyperdrive types should have their clear advantages and disadvantages. Example:
Highspeed drives should require lots of energy, have a long jump initiation time and therefore the highest speed.
Efficient drives should require the least energy, have a medium jump initiation time and medium speed.
Fast Jump drives should require moderate amounts of energy, have the fastest jump initiation time and medium to low speed.

Thrusters:

High volume thrusters should provide the fastest max speed and therefore require lots of energy for maximum thrust. More energy for cruising should be required. These thrusters are engineered for high speed and less cruising speed.

Efficient Thrusters should provide a low max speed, therefore using less energy for maximum thrust. Their cruise speed should be a little bit higher, while requiring the same amount or less energy than the high volume thrusters.

Reactors:

This tech branches out into two reactors. The hydrogen reactor should be for maximum energy output, while the caslon reactor should be more fuel efficient and have a higher capacity.


5. How are the different components modified

I will try to use the maximum hyperspeed as the limiting factor for drive improvements. However, if I see that it makes the game too slow or boring, I might consider tweaking reactors and fuel consumption a bit.
Thrusters and reactors will just get a slight overhaul to their values.


6. Potential issues with this modification:

1. AI Ship Design Problems
2. Pirates with low tier jumpdrives cant reach out far enough



I will tweak some values and start playtesting today and tomorrow. I wanted to post in this forum to get some other suggestions on how to tackle the different issues in this project and to get an idea if there is any interest at all in such a modification. I appreciate any feedback.
If anybody wants some pictures of the techbranches, I could provide some. Also, as soon as I find the values I'm actually comfortable with, I'll post them here.


Thanks for reading,

foma


TL;DR
Hyperdrives too op!
Hyperdrives too similar!
Gradual improvement for drives is better!
Thrusters too similar!
Reactors too similar!
Energy Techtree has useless Techs!
This mod tries to fix the above!



Osito -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/24/2014 5:15:32 PM)

Oh yeah, I remember that one.

The link is here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3606774

I certainly agree with the goal of reducing the early power of hyperdrives, especially ship range, and I would probably do a mod myself, if someone else doesn't do one first ...

Personally I would like to see ship ranges reduced, but I'm not too concerned about ship speeds. In fact, I might even want to see them increased in the late game. I feel that the best way to reduce the range would be by decreasing the fuel efficiency of warp engines.

Some other things I would like to see in the energy tree are:

1. Reverse caslon and hydrogen. It's silly really, but I think hydrogen should come first.

2. Make 2 changes to thrusters:
(a) Introduce a fuel scoop tech, which effectively renders (at least some) thrusters fuel-free, or if not fuel-free, then at least have a very very high fuel efficiency. This will enable ships to remain orbiting a planet in a system almost indefinitely instead of frequently refuelling.
(b) Make some thrusters which are MUCH faster, allowing ship speeds of perhaps 200-300. The point of this would be to allow for providing a sub-warp system defence force. Note that I am assuming that the AI would not be stupid enough to try to drive one of these ships to another star system - that would need to be tested.

Anyway, in the meantime, feel free to adopt any of these suggestions in your own mod, if you like the sound of them.

Good luck!

Osito



FireLion1983 -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/24/2014 5:32:48 PM)

Love it!



Fishers of Men -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/24/2014 8:50:25 PM)

These ideas are the beginning effort to improve this area of research in DW which, in my opinion, to make the galaxy larger with more planning and strategy for long distance travel. Keep up the good work!



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/24/2014 11:39:23 PM)

Alright guys, thanks for your feedback.

I went through most of the things I wanted to change. I did alot of value tweaking and techtree rearranging.
I decided to up the fuel consumption on lower tier reactors in order to achieve the desired effect for the travel distances. As it stands right now, a ship designed with 4 standard fuel cells and a basic Gerax Hyperdrive should have ranges between 2 to 3 sectors. Each improvement on drives should yield little range extension. Each upgrade of reactors does effect travel range a little bit more.

In order to have ships with at least 15 sector range you need hightier hyperdrives (T7 onwards), the correspondent tier of reactors and lastly ultradense fuel cells. Keep in mind that I tried to balance it around ships with 2 to 4 fuel cells. You could of course still fill your design up with fuel cells and still get long ship ranges.
Oh and I switched Caslon and Hydrogen.



So here goes the first changelog:



Energy Techtree Rebalanced v0.1

Changelog:

Reactor Techtree:

-redesigned techtree for reactors
-readjusted values for Energy Output/ Fuel Consumption/ Capacities/ Required Resources
-latest Fission Reactor Improvement (Fission Mastery) required for later branches
-Quantum and Fusion Reactors become available at Tier 4
-Quantum Reactors use Caslon
-Basic/ Fission/ Fusion Reactors use Hydrogen
-Quantum Reactor branch has high energy output, high fuel consumption and low capacity
-Fusion Reactor branch has low energy output, low fuel consumption and high capacity

Shield Techtree:

-redesigned techtree for shields
-latest Talassos and Deucalios Shield Improvements (Multiphase Capacitors/ Dense Energy Banks) required for Meridian Shields
-latest Area Shield Recharge available at Tier 8

Hyperdrives:

-redesigned techtree for drives
-readjusted values for Speed/ Energy Usage/ Jump Initiation Time
-latest Gerax Hyperdrive Improvement (Jump Sequence Optimization) is required for later branches
-Highspeed/ Fast Jump/ Efficient Jump Drives become available at Tier 4
-latest Highspeed/ Fast Jump/ Efficient Jump Drive Improvements required for Torrent Drive
-Torrent Drive available at Tier 7

Engines:

-redesigned techtree for engines
-readjusted values for Maximum Thrust/ Maximum Energy Usage/ Cruise Thrust/ Cruise Energy Usage
-latest Proton Thruster Improvement (Advanced Proton Ionization) required for later branches
-Quantum/ Acceleros Engines become available at Tier 4
-latest Quantum/ Acceleros Engine Improvements (Optimized Engine Efficiency/ Surplus Thrust Overload) required for Vortex Engine
-Vortex Engine available at Tier 7



If you want to know exact values, you can find them in the changelog.txt file in the download.

And here is a link for anyone brave enough to test this:

Edit: forgot that I cannot post links yet. If you want a link, send me a private message.

Note that I use this filehoster since I havent uploaded anything before... ever. Feel free to suggest a better one.

To install this modification, place the research.txt and components.txt file into one of the Themefolders in ...\Distant Worlds Universe\Customization\Themeofyourchoice.
When the game starts up select the theme in which you have placed the files under theme selection.

Most of my testing has been editing values, loading games up, designing the appropriate ship and checking the ship range in the customization screen. Since I havent played a full game yet, I cannot foresee which effect the tweaked fuel consumption will have on early economy.

If anyone gives this a try, I would really appreciate any feedback and suggestion.

P.S.: If you want pics of the altered techtree, I could provide them.



Osito -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 12:26:10 AM)

I'd be happy to help test this, if you send me a link, but I would make one point: if you reduce the efficiency of reactors (i.e by increasing their fuel consumption) that has a knock-on effect to every piece of equipment that uses energy. It may be that you want to do that for other reasons, but it may not be a good reason to affect hyperdrive or thruster speeds or ranges. Anyway, regardless, I'll be happy to help test it. :-)



hewwo -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 3:29:53 AM)

owwww I was just thinking exactly along the same lines. The gerax is way to good and all the alternative drives have tiny differences. Yay for this mod. Will definitely use it (or more likely, combine with other mods) when you're done!



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 4:39:04 AM)

Can you do a screenshot of your changes?



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 11:42:47 AM)

@ Osito

I just send you the link. Yes upping the fuel consumption will inevitably have effects on everything that uses static energy. I tried to balance it out by making the first 4 tiers of reactors highly fuelinneficient (up by 50% of vanilla fuel consumption).
I thought about reducing the fuel efficiency of the hyperdrives themselves like you mentioned in your thread. However the problem with that is, that I just have to increase the energy required for full speed travelling.
Which in turn means that more reactors would be needed to reach maximum velocity with any given drive. This would give us the desired effect, since jumping would cost alot of fuel. I don't think adding lots and lots of reactors should be the way to go. That's why I went and reduced the fuel efficiency of reactors themselves.
I hope I understood your proposed solution correctly.

@ hewwo

Actually, if you want to try it, I could pm you with the link. I'm not allowed to post links yet.

@ Gareth_Bryne

Would love to, but I don't think I have the permission as of now.



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 12:45:22 PM)

Post in other threads, then.



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 12:58:03 PM)

I'm not allowed to post any links. I need 10 posts, and then I have to wait 7 days.

Here is the Reactor & Shields Techtree:

imgur.com/9DW5dCL

Here is the Drive & Engine Techtree:

imgur.com/zEfKjBz

Copy and paste into your browser.



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 1:04:30 PM)

It seems I just can't post direct links, which makes sense. If you want to try out the modification, post this into your browser adressline:

file-upload.net/download-8948598/ETR-01.zip.html

Note: If you are using any other mod that alters the files research.txt and components.txt, you would have to overwrite the file in order to use this mod. Now I know alot of people use the Distants Worlds: Universe Extended Mod by Haree78, so I would need to make a version which is compatible with that mod.

Edit: If there is a demand for that.



uberknight72 -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 1:49:42 PM)

I like this :D. The warpdrive progression was something I always found quite "unprogressive". For this reason I was thinking about tweaking the techtrees myself, though it seems like you already have this under control ^^

Ill certainly be making this mod compatible with my RRR mod once I get it balanced. These two seem like they'd work together pretty well, concerning the addition of my third fuel source.



StarLab -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/25/2014 2:09:00 PM)

+1 for this mod.

Yes, once Gerex comes along, the entire galaxy is accessible. A slower progression to that end will be welcomed! [:)]



hewwo -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/26/2014 7:23:52 AM)

Hey! sorry I hardly have any time to play now, so I'll just lurk for now:) But thanks for the offer!



Mesthione -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/26/2014 5:23:57 PM)

I'm a fan of slow games with 999k research speed, and the warp drive progression always seemed to break the flow of things. I'm looking forward to the progress of this mod! Thank you for your work.



Brone -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/26/2014 6:25:16 PM)

Yea this was really bothering me when I was playing as a pre-warp empire. I was having trouble getting around my little solar system and the next thing I know I'm shooting across the stars no problem. This should make things more interesting and less black and white as the current warp drives make the game at the moment.



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/26/2014 6:52:52 PM)

Ok, so I have been testing the warp drives on different tiers. The example I use is a simple Exploration ship with only the essential components and 4 fuel cells.

Here are the numbers for the different techtiers (Note: I presume one techtier to be fully researched in order to get this number. Example: On Tier 4 you get access to Ultradense fuel cells, the two different specialized reactors and the three different Warpdrives):

Range measured in sectors:

T0: 0,5

T1: 2,21

T2: 3,37

T3: 4,21

T4 with Quantum Reactor: Highspeed Drive: 7,27; Fastjump Drive: 6,94; Efficient Drive: 10,87

T4 with Fusion Reactor: Highspeed Drive: 8,81; Fastjump Drive: 8,42; Efficient Drive: 13,18

T5 QR: HSD: 7,91; FJD: 6,84; EFD: 11,08

T5 FR: HSD: 9,64; FJD: 8,34; EFD: 13,50

T6 QR: HSD: 10,30; FJD: 9,09; EFD: 13,97

T6 FR: HSD: 12,62; FJD: 11,14; EFD: 17,13

T7 QR: Torrent Drive: 14,09

T7 FR: TD: 17,89

T8 Quantumfoam Reactor: TD: 17,47

T8 Hyperfusion Reactor: TD: 22,57

T9 QFR: TD: 19,48

T9 HFR: TD: 25,16

Since I had to increase the fuel consumption of the first 4 tiers of reactors considerably to get these results, pre- Warp Field Precursor shiprange got considerably cut down.

PS: I have finished one version with the numbers shown above for the mod Extended Universe if anyone is interested. I`ll talk to Haree78 first though to get his okay, since the research.txt and components.txt contains his work too in order to function properly together.



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/26/2014 8:53:52 PM)

Allright here is the version for the Distans Worlds Extended Universe Mod by Haree78.

Here is the link to the mod from Haree78:

matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3141149

And here is the link for the compatible version of my mod:

file-upload.net/download-8957879/ETR-Extended.zip.html

Just copy the adress lines and paste them into your browser adress lines, since I cannot post direct links yet.

To get everything working right, you have to install Extended Universe first, and then copy the files from my mod (components.txt and research.txt) and put them into the Extended Universe folder which should be located under \Distant Worlds Universe\Customization\.
If windows prompts you to replace those two files, accept for both.

I will also provide a standalone version of this mod a little bit later if you prefer to play Vanilla Distant Worlds.






Osito -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/26/2014 10:26:38 PM)

Hi Foma, I have not tested your own mod yet, but I have been playing around with the figures. I take your point about what happens if you decrease hyperspace fuel efficiency. It does reduce the range nicely, but that is at the expense of having to add too many reactors. To address that, the power output of the reactors would need to be increased, and that probably means you have to increase the size of them.

In your own tests have you looked at the range you can get out of a constructor? The reason I ask is because they can take much more fuel than an explorer, which can help them increase their range. It isn't going to work if a constructor could be used as an early exploration ship by the human players, while the AI is trying to explore in explorers.



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/27/2014 1:18:20 AM)

@ Osito

I can see being able to balance early game hyperspace fuel efficiency with increasing size and output of the reactors. There are problems arising though when you're trying to build military ships in the earlier stages of the game, where every point of size counts, as it means more weapons or extra systems. The more I think about it, the more I get the impression that a complete redesign of every travel aspect would probably be best (fuel cells, reactors, drives, sizes, energy usage etc.).

I just designed a constructor on tier 1. I was able to get 27 fuel cells into the design, without violating the 35% minimum cargo space rule. That equaled 11,18 sectors on tier 1. I'm actually trying to come up with a way of balancing that. I don't actually know if I can tweak the maximum size of construction ships somewhere. If it's not possible, then there is no noncrazy way to fix that problem.

Edit: Construction Size was tier 2. Edited the numbers to match tier 1.



Tanaka -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/29/2014 2:13:36 AM)

Thank you for modding this has always bugged me as well look forward to testing it!



Tanaka -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/30/2014 5:17:39 AM)

Hmm did you remove the Bakuras Highspeed Shipyards? I no longer see this in the construction techs?



hewwo -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/30/2014 7:21:02 AM)

How about... reducing the amount of fuel in fuel cells, and then reducing the amount of energy/second used by weapons to make sure you can still fight a decent war for more than 10 seconds.



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/30/2014 9:10:02 AM)

@ Tanaka

Actually, as I was playtesting yesterday, I encountered the same problem. I'll fix it asap and reupload.

@ hewwo

Actually, that would probably be the most straight forward method. That would be a lot of work though, going through all the weapons. Plus, I would start tinkering with the other two techtrees and balance, which I did not want to do.

I think I might give your suggestion a try.




Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/30/2014 9:16:45 AM)

This one should have the bakuras shipyard fixed for Universe-Extended Users:

xup.to/dl,30172080/ERT_extended.zip/

I had to use another filehoster, since the other one was bugging out.

Edit: Btw, thank you very much for testing!!! you can just overwrite these two files in your customization\distant worlds Extended\ directory and continue with the old save.



Osito -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/31/2014 3:14:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foma

@ Tanaka

Actually, as I was playtesting yesterday, I encountered the same problem. I'll fix it asap and reupload.

@ hewwo

Actually, that would probably be the most straight forward method. That would be a lot of work though, going through all the weapons. Plus, I would start tinkering with the other two techtrees and balance, which I did not want to do.

I think I might give your suggestion a try.




I took a quick look at simultaneously increasing fuel cell size and reducing its capacity, which is probably better than just reducing capacity. It seemed to work pretty well at restricting range. I could fairly easily reduce even constructors down to a max range of about 2.5 light years with the basix Gerax hyperdrive.

Hewwo is right that the weapons energy consumption would need to be looked at too, because they do drain the fuel very quickly.

I suspect sub-light thrusters would need to be looked at as well. Personally I would introduce a fuel scoop tech that makes sub-light travel virtually fuel free. I think it would improve gameplay if you don't have to worry about refuelling ships that are just patrolling a home planet.

Anyway, I hope it's going well.



hewwo -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/31/2014 3:21:12 PM)

Yay:) I guess doing the weapon energy use is not that complicated: just divide every number by the same ratio as you divided the original fuel cell capacity with.



Solarius Scorch -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/31/2014 4:45:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hewwo

Yay:) I guess doing the weapon energy use is not that complicated: just divide every number by the same ratio as you divided the original fuel cell capacity with.


I don't think it's too complicated either. It looks like a one hour job to me, which is next to nothing in the realm of modding.

I'm such a slave driver, aren't I? :P



Foma -> RE: [WIP] Energy Techtree Rebalanced (5/31/2014 5:34:33 PM)

@ Osito

That's brilliant. I will tinker with that. That fuel scoop tech should become available really late into the game I feel. The thing is, the later it gets researched, the less uses it has. I'll see into it.

@ hewwo

Will try exactly that.

@ Solarius Scorch

Everything looks like a small job when you're only changing values ^^. Actually, this is my first modding attempt of any kind.



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