Update SPWAW OOB's (Full Version)

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bchapman -> Update SPWAW OOB's (2/12/2003 12:55:35 PM)

I just noticed this file on the ftp site. What is it and what does it affect?
Thanks,
Rebelbug



Supervisor -> Official updated SPWAW OOB's (2/13/2003 3:00:04 AM)

They update the [B]o[/B]rder [B]o[/B]f [B]b[/B]attle historical qualities for the effected contries, trying to bring their historical value to as close as possible. They were updated by Bryan Melvin and blessed and posted by David Heath so these updated ones are as close to official as we're going to get. Make back ups of the originals and extract these into the [B] C:\MatrixGames\Steel Panthers World at War\[/B] directory overwritting existing files after you backed up the originals.



bchapman -> (2/13/2003 3:57:35 AM)

Thanks Gmenfan,
Is there a document or website showing what the changes are?
Rebelbug



Supervisor -> (2/13/2003 6:42:28 AM)

I'm requesting one from Bryan, this caught my by surprise so I had to ask David what he new about it. Once I get a list of changes I will post them.



bchapman -> (2/13/2003 7:11:18 AM)

Thank you sir!
You are a credit to the Matrix Staff.



KG Erwin -> Wow, this took me by surprise (2/13/2003 7:38:34 AM)

Yeah, I want to see the list of changes before I install these, too. I made some alternative German and USMC OOBs which I'll be sure to backup before installing this. In any case, the simple fact that these were still "in the loop" says a lot for the dedication of David in the hoary old SPWaW. BTW, unzip these into a new folder first. To be safe, check the date on these files before you overwrite your old ones.



tracer -> (2/13/2003 11:04:06 AM)

Probably a good idea to mention that you should [I]not[/I] download this OOB set if you have H2H installed (they should only be used with SPWAW v7.1).



Orzel Bialy -> Official Press Release... (2/13/2003 11:29:15 AM)

is on its way from Bryan. ;)



BryanMelvin -> (2/13/2003 11:56:18 AM)

What changes were made - good question ;)

Rockin Harry Updated oob 86 and added a few new toys in it for scenario design - some of these are experimental.

Lend Lease equipment set to match in allied nations

The Nations Squads weapon mix have been adjusted to provide more realism.

PF, Pchrk, Baz, Piat should have HE as well as HEAT

Some of the Nation's Formations were cleaned up. Example Italian Infantry Platoon no longer carries hoards of Brix's

Larger Tanks and late war year Tanks can now carry full Squads

USMC oob - the Amtrack error is fixed that prevented these from showing up in game or oob menu. USMC Trucks fixed too.

Several Artillery Gun Ranges for Off Map Atrillery were off. These should be fixed. If you find something missed. Let me know.

German Glider should be able to carry 10 men as it did.

Overall, you may not notice much has changed unless you design scenarios or play battle games. I suggest you look at Tanks and see how many men they can carry and look at Infantry units.

Just note - Not all Tanks can carry a full squad only a few. The T34 can as it moves thru the war years - older model T34's still carry 8 men while newer models carry a bit more ;)

Have fun and keep me posted on what you find! Bugs, Graphic errors, etc.

These oobs will not change any scenarios or games made in version 7.0 builds.



Supervisor -> Thanks Bryan (2/13/2003 12:04:56 PM)

Thanks for the insight. I'll keep this thread on a sticky for a while.
Gamers please post your inputs/comments good or bad and when we have enough reasonable request changes, then these guys can make the necessary corrections and post them for all of us to use. Keep up the great work.



RayM -> Should OOB files be in *SPWAW\oob* directory? (2/14/2003 11:25:47 AM)

I downloaded the update and was wondering if I they should go in the \oob subdirectory vice C:\MatrixGames\Steel Panthers World at War\ as stated in the thread. I looked at the SPWAW level and to my surprise, I found some from 24 March, 19 May and 7 June 2002. Should I move these into \Oob? Or just delete?

Thanks.

Ray



BryanMelvin -> Re: Should OOB files be in *SPWAW\oob* directory? (2/14/2003 12:16:02 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RayM
[B]I downloaded the update and was wondering if I they should go in the \oob subdirectory vice C:\MatrixGames\Steel Panthers World at War\ as stated in the thread. I looked at the SPWAW level and to my surprise, I found some from 24 March, 19 May and 7 June 2002. Should I move these into \Oob? Or just delete?

Thanks.

Ray [/B][/QUOTE]

I would create a New Folder in the Spwaw folder and name it - Old 7.1 oobs - and then cut and paste all the 7.1 oobs currently in the spwaw folder into it. Then place the new revised oobs you downloaded from here in spwaw folder. This way, you have both if and when needed.



Reg -> OOB swapping made easy (2/14/2003 1:44:42 PM)

Or you can use the OOB Manager utility by Jerry Heintz to simply switch any number of OOB sets at the click of a button.

I have a copy (2.5MB) but does anyone know where it is currently hosted on the Internet for anyone else who wants it. I went looking to see if it was still available but was unable to find a download site. IIRC, it used to be on the authors site.

Cheers,
Reg.

[img]http://users.tpg.com.au/users/rpstock/spoobman.gif[/img]



bchapman -> (2/16/2003 11:03:16 AM)

Reg,
Here is the link for the OOB Manger's author site:[URL=http://jphz.tripod.com/oobman/oobpage.htm]OOB Manager[/URL]



Supervisor -> Link (2/16/2003 11:31:32 AM)

Here is he link to these updated OOB's. It got broken in my first message so I am reposting it.

[URL=ftp://ftp.matrixgames.com/pub/SteelPanthersWorldAtWar/Spwaw-OOB-Update-2003-01-31.zip]Updated SPWAW OOB's[/URL]



RayM -> (2/17/2003 3:47:51 AM)

Thanks for the suggestions. I saved the oob files (28 total) that were in \SPWAW and extracted the new download into the folder. I've left the \SPWAW\OOB folder alone, but I am still curious about it. Thanks also for the OOBManager. I'll take a look at it.

Ray



Supervisor -> (2/17/2003 12:07:42 PM)

RayM: The SPWAW\OOB folder is a sign of things past, it was used in older version of SPWAW as a place for us to post changes about the OOB's in a text format. It serves no real purpose anymore.



BryanMelvin -> (2/18/2003 12:19:32 AM)

Please note that these OOBs are a teaser for the real update to come within the next few weeks and David Heath will announce the final Official OObs when these are ready.

So, enjoy these as you may. They will work with all scenarios built in versions 7.0.

I will keep you posted on OOB Final official Matrix version as we move along and finish these up.



gnoccop -> (2/18/2003 7:06:14 AM)

Thankyou BryanMelvin for your work and dedication to SPWAW!!!



RayM -> (2/18/2003 8:02:29 AM)

Thanks gmenfan for the info.

Ray



o4r -> (2/22/2003 3:37:30 AM)

Can somebody fix that problem with the close support unit of the German and the Russian.

Whenever I change any of my unit in the solo campaign to a close support vehicle like a Pz I 150, Pz II 150 or SIG 33, my artillery will change from fast reponse artillery to sometime either recon unit or no status. Thus losing its fast reponse artillery status permanently.

I think there is something wrong or conflict problem with the close support vehicle and the on board artillery.....

I have tried the Russian unit and whenever a vehicle during the late senario change to SU-152 which is the russian version of close support weapon, the same thing happen.

This problem was there since the first version of the SPWAW is out but nobody knows just what made the conflict in the program?

Finally after year of playing and quit and play and testing I realise the problem arise on the close support weapon.

If anybody wish to try to see the conflict. Simply start any senario with German for Sep 1939 and Russian with Dec 1941. Once the German reach to the Franch campagin and immediately after, you can change your unit to a close support Pz (try change all 4 of them) and then you on board artillery will lose it status and become either recon unit or no more fast reponse artillery.

As for the Russian, sometime changing to a KV-2 will do that too. Else when you are enable to get a SU-152, the problem will arise.

Somehow any weapon in the close support weaponary conflict when you have on board artillery.

To make the test fast, every start of the turn, press F9 for surrender and remember to on the fast artillery cause sometime when you defend, the enemy arillery is a pest.



BryanMelvin -> (2/22/2003 12:31:31 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by o4r
[B]Can somebody fix that problem with the close support unit of the German and the Russian.

Whenever I change any of my unit in the solo campaign to a close support vehicle like a Pz I 150, Pz II 150 or SIG 33, my artillery will change from fast reponse artillery to sometime either recon unit or no status. Thus losing its fast reponse artillery status permanently.

I think there is something wrong or conflict problem with the close support vehicle and the on board artillery.....

I have tried the Russian unit and whenever a vehicle during the late senario change to SU-152 which is the russian version of close support weapon, the same thing happen.

This problem was there since the first version of the SPWAW is out but nobody knows just what made the conflict in the program?

Finally after year of playing and quit and play and testing I realise the problem arise on the close support weapon.

If anybody wish to try to see the conflict. Simply start any senario with German for Sep 1939 and Russian with Dec 1941. Once the German reach to the Franch campagin and immediately after, you can change your unit to a close support Pz (try change all 4 of them) and then you on board artillery will lose it status and become either recon unit or no more fast reponse artillery.

As for the Russian, sometime changing to a KV-2 will do that too. Else when you are enable to get a SU-152, the problem will arise.

Somehow any weapon in the close support weaponary conflict when you have on board artillery.

To make the test fast, every start of the turn, press F9 for surrender and remember to on the fast artillery cause sometime when you defend, the enemy arillery is a pest. [/B][/QUOTE]


I will look into this as best I can. This maybe a coding issue in the system and not the oobs.

It could be the radios too. Do these units have radios?



TheOriginalOverlord -> (2/23/2003 5:04:16 AM)

The USA OOB still has some problems that I ID'd over a year ago and no changes have been made. Not trying to be a pain in the butt, just trying to get some "historical accuracy" in the OOB. :D

The M3 GMC is still useless as a TD (which is what is was made to do) because you have 52 rounds of HE and 8 rounds of HEAT but the 75mm gun has no HEAT pen . This gun didn't fire HEAT, only AP and HE. The M1897 75mm used the SAME ammo as the M2/M3/M6 75mm guns. Barrel length is between the M2 and M3 and AP pen should be somewhere in between. This gun/vehicle combo needs to be fixed in every oob that has it (US, UK, USMC and others?)

Wrong start dates for the Flame and Dozer Shermans. Should be March'44 for the Dozer and May '45 for the Flame(USA and any other county that has it).

The M8 Scott in the CS role has no HEAT ammo while in the SPA version has AP ammo and it should be HEAT ammo as this 75mm Howitzer only fired HE/HEAT/smoke ammo.

Other minor problems.

The USMC OOB still has the M8 "Scott" HMC in it. The Marines never used this AFV. Also the LVT 3 Bushmaster has the wrong weapons.(delete the TMG and leave the BMG) Other than that it's in pretty good shape.



BryanMelvin -> (2/24/2003 12:44:15 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Overlord
[B]The USA OOB still has some problems that I ID'd over a year ago and no changes have been made. Not trying to be a pain in the butt, just trying to get some "historical accuracy" in the OOB. :D

The M3 GMC is still useless as a TD (which is what is was made to do) because you have 52 rounds of HE and 8 rounds of HEAT but the 75mm gun has no HEAT pen . This gun didn't fire HEAT, only AP and HE. The M1897 75mm used the SAME ammo as the M2/M3/M6 75mm guns. Barrel length is between the M2 and M3 and AP pen should be somewhere in between. This gun/vehicle combo needs to be fixed in every oob that has it (US, UK, USMC and others?)

Wrong start dates for the Flame and Dozer Shermans. Should be March'44 for the Dozer and May '45 for the Flame(USA and any other county that has it).

The M8 Scott in the CS role has no HEAT ammo while in the SPA version has AP ammo and it should be HEAT ammo as this 75mm Howitzer only fired HE/HEAT/smoke ammo.

Other minor problems.

The USMC OOB still has the M8 "Scott" HMC in it. The Marines never used this AFV. Also the LVT 3 Bushmaster has the wrong weapons.(delete the TMG and leave the BMG) Other than that it's in pretty good shape. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info ;)

This helps!!



TheOriginalOverlord -> (2/24/2003 6:27:22 AM)

Another bug I've been messing with:

[URL=AA Unit link]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17485[/URL]

I've come up with some answers and hopefully some solutions.

The reason all of the 20-25mm AA guns are not killing is simply because they have NO "HE PEN" value. :eek: A value of 7-10 is what I've found to work and be comparable to "realistic" results.

The reason the quad 50's kill ALL the time is because of the super inflated (IMHO) HE kill value of 36! I've experimented and brought this down to HE kill of 7 for the single 50's, 12 for the twin 50cal and 18 for the quad 50's, this seems to work much better allowing some damaging shots as well as getting kills.

This means that MG's in 12.7 (50cal) to 15mm range will need the HE kill values lowered a bit but certainly this will not "nerf" them. Why do they need lowered? Because these particular MG's generally fire "non-explosive" ammunition and just because they are larger than rifle caliber doesn't make them more effecient killers. Take the 50cal M2 Browning and it's smaller brother the .30cal M1919A4. I made both HE kill the same at 7. Because they have similar ROF's and they fire regular ammo. For many of you who have fired these weapons in real life you will see where I'm coming from. A bullet is a bullet is a bullet and size doesn't really matter when you are shooting at Infantry...if you hit them they are going to be hurt no matter what you hit them with. However when you start shooting at light AFVs and other vehicle's is where the superior penetration of the .50 shines above it's little .30cal brother. Now when that .50 cal punches through the scout car etc. it is more likely to just punch a hole in the armor and maybe injure a crewman...HE kill of 7 works fine for this. Earlier with it's inflated HE kill any penetrating hit was a "brew up" for the vehicle.

On this same note some of the MG HE kill #'s need to be tweaked as well. The Vickers HMG has a 14 while it's CMG version only has a 10??? These could both be brought down to the 7-8 range and no one would notice as they would both perform similarly.

Did all that giberish make sense?? :confused:

Regards,



o4r -> (2/24/2003 10:01:18 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BryanMelvin
[B]I will look into this as best I can. This maybe a coding issue in the system and not the oobs.

It could be the radios too. Do these units have radios? [/B][/QUOTE]

According to the status show, yes they have it. It is a value of 1.

But I still dont quite understand about the changing of unit. Once I was told by one of your admin for the OOB editor that I cannot purchase a whole company of unit and then delete them thus giving me only the commander which have the special ability of recon. That was sometime last year June. After which I stop for quite awhile after a month Sept 11.

This time I reload and start all over again. I purchase unit from platoon level and some section of this and that. But I still get the same thing once I change them to a support unit.

Is it that I must purchase recon unit only to change them to a recon and if I purchase any support unit, I can only change them to support unit in order to prevent them from crashing with other unit. If the existing unit have 4 vehicle in one unit, it is a must that I must have four units too to prevent same occurs.

I like solo campagin since I have actually completed all the campagin and my friend recently is engaged in something else. But this frustration of when unit change and other unit status change made m game very frustrated. I dont mind other unit change their status but the fast respond artillery is always in my main core unit cause I am already quite familiar with it. I can used them intenstively even playing with human player but with computer I always have this stupid problem. It is quite sad actually.

I recently tried something else. I omitted purchasing FO for my main core and change my HQ to it but after playing nearly to the end of 1942, when I managed to change some of my tanks to Tiger, it happen again. The artillery again change to recon unit? I am acutally quite confused. It seem like may not be the problem of the 150mm gun. It is something that we change during the game that made the changes to other a problem.

Maybe I start to play another new game and try to only change unit like support to those appear to be support on other unit and HQ seem like nothing to change......forever infantry I think.

Once I get the result I will get back to you. I think it is not so simple as I have trial.

From the very sad......



JimPY -> (2/25/2003 3:08:37 AM)

I agree that the HE Pen values of MG's and AA guns are mystifying. The 12.7 mm and .50 cal. have a HE Pen of 23,but some 20mm AA have a HE Pen of 0.
Also, I think that the accuracy ratings of MG's of 12.7 mm and below are too low. These MG's were rarely causing any casaulties to infantry. I have increased the Accuracy ratings by about 20% for .30 cal and below mg's and 10% for .50 cal MG's. These changes increased casualties to infantry, especially under 400 meters range. Now infantry squads cannot kill off MG's at will.
I recommend examing this issue when you finish updating the 7.1oob's in addition to HE Pen ratings.

Jim Yalem



Voriax -> (2/25/2003 4:12:01 AM)

Those 20mm guns you talk about..they have the weapon code 222 which means they only need one type of ammo, the AP. It's used either as HE or AP depending of target. They tend to have APCR which balances things a bit.

Voriax



TheOriginalOverlord -> (2/25/2003 4:24:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Those 20mm guns you talk about..they have the weapon code 222 which means they only need one type of ammo, the AP. It's used either as HE or AP depending of target. They tend to have APCR which balances things a bit.[/QUOTE]

However regardless of the weapon code if the ammo has "NO" HE pen then it will not penetrate AT ALL. Try it yourself against an armored ground attack plane. The 20mm Flakvierling will generally scrape the paint off of a FW190 WITHOUT doing any damage.
Now go back and bump the HE pen to 7-9 and run it again. You get damaged A/C and also kills as well. The NO HE pen value was keeping it from penetrating the A/C armor. So by only giving them a HE pen value you can now damage/kill armored A/C.



RobertS -> (2/26/2003 1:58:14 AM)

Overlord-Seems there's a couple different issues here. Now you're talking about 20mm Pen against planes. The pen against armored VEHICLES works okay. But as I read your post, I became concerned about planes and ran some of my own tests. It seems Overlord is right and we may have a serious problem here. With no HE PEN, I got a couple damage points here and there,no kills. I changed DURABILITY(not armor) to one and finally shot the plane(Mosquito down) with FLAK38. So it's penetrating, but it's got the killing power of a AAMG. After changing to higher HE PEN I got kills right away. Now here's where it gets serious. The .50 cal and 12.7 have HE Pen in the 20's. This was done so they could cause supression like a regular MG and still penetrate armor, since they only carry HE ammo. Unfortunately, if the game uses HE PEN as the means for determining plane damage, this means those mg's have more knockdown power than most 75mm AAs. With those guns, planes came down pretty easy. (I forgot to mention I set EXP very high so they always were getting the hit.) If I'm right about what I'm saying here, the only thing I can think of is to take away or at least reduce HE PEN from guns like the 50cal AAMG and provide some values for the 20-25mm. By the way, the 15mm AAMG has code 222 in a couple of OOBS and has a HE PEN. Can any with code222 experience chime in on this? I think this is serious enough to cause me speak up after only reading posts for 1/2 year. Speaking of OOB's, Let me close by saying, I have gone over every weapon and every unit in every last godforsaken OOB and my opinion is that these OOB'S require a complete overhaul. Over time, much has been changed in one OOB and not another, strange values entered in some weapons, AA guns with no AA capability...ect,ect...the list just goes on and on.:(

Thanks for listening!



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