Economy question (Full Version)

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Daeromont1 -> Economy question (6/5/2014 12:12:50 AM)

I've looked up some things on my economy and about to do a major overhaul, knowing now that I need to remove the 20 spaceports I have built in favor of defense stations. Having said that, if I only have one spaceport in my empire of roughly 21 planets, will trade still be conducted? I thought the tutorial said something about spaceports being necessary for trade income? Sorry if this is redundant...but I must have missed something in my reading and I have very limited time to play (only about 2 hrs or less each eve)...so I don't want to spend it all reading the net. Thanks!



OzoneGrif_slith -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 12:39:01 AM)

You need a "Commerce center" to generate trade revenues. A planet without a spaceport doesn't have a trade center.

Maybe you should design a very small spaceport, an inexpensive one without weapons, just to generate revenues?



Spacecadet -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 12:44:45 AM)

I'm glad you brought this up, it reminded me of something I'd forgotten about.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I generally end up building at least a Small Spaceport at every Colony, and some folk were questioning that.

The main reasons I gave there were that you gain additional Research Labs (normally equipped), Medical, Recreation, Construction Yards, and some defensive capabilities.
I left out probably one of the reasons it doesn't really tank my Economy - Commerce Centers.

Not only do Commerce Centers promote Trade at your Colony, but with advancing Tech you get higher and higher % Bonuses.

I really can't tell you how much trade to expect at just a Colony, but with the Commerce Center component on a Spaceport you'll get a bonus.

Having said that, I generally don't build a Spaceport until the Population on the planet is around 500M to 1B.






ldog -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 12:58:22 AM)

I build spaceports on every planet, ASAP.
I make a "super-small" starter outpost. No labs or construction. Typically a bit lighter on weapons than my standard SSP.
The trade, medical and entertainment are just too important to go without (especially so on medical if plagues are enabled), and even light defenses discourage pirates (or at least can hold out until a sector defense fleet can get there).
Otherwise yeah, not worth bothering until 500M...you don't want ships sitting in queues over undeveloped worlds. Once my economy gets rolling I almost never have money problems, and I like to keep low taxes until pop is maxed (of course that might not be viable any more with the new beta patch).



Nanaki -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 1:02:49 AM)

Due to how research works, I find it is probably better to have fewer, larger research labs than many small labs spread across the empire. However, medical/recreational facilities are a must, and of course docking bays, cargo bays, construction bays, and some defensive armaments.



Spidey -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 1:55:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

I'm glad you brought this up, it reminded me of something I'd forgotten about.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I generally end up building at least a Small Spaceport at every Colony, and some folk were questioning that.

The main reasons I gave there were that you gain additional Research Labs (normally equipped), Medical, Recreation, Construction Yards, and some defensive capabilities.
I left out probably one of the reasons it doesn't really tank my Economy - Commerce Centers.

Not only do Commerce Centers promote Trade at your Colony, but with advancing Tech you get higher and higher % Bonuses.

I really can't tell you how much trade to expect at just a Colony, but with the Commerce Center component on a Spaceport you'll get a bonus.

Having said that, I generally don't build a Spaceport until the Population on the planet is around 500M to 1B.

All of this can just as well be put on a regular starbase, providing the same benefits with out the AI getting confused about where you want your resources stockpiled.

And seriously, labs? Why not just build a few research bases and be well sorted? It's not like it really takes that much to reach the research cap, is it? Or did something change in Universe that I haven't noticed yet?



Spidey -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 1:58:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OzoneGrif

You need a "Commerce center" to generate trade revenues. A planet without a spaceport doesn't have a trade center.

Maybe you should design a very small spaceport, an inexpensive one without weapons, just to generate revenues?

I'm pretty sure any base in orbit with a commerce center will do the trick, regardless of whether it's a space port design or not.



Spidey -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:07:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Due to how research works, I find it is probably better to have fewer, larger research labs than many small labs spread across the empire. However, medical/recreational facilities are a must, and of course docking bays, cargo bays, construction bays, and some defensive armaments.

You only need so many labs. IIRC, the research potential peaks at 990k, which means you need a capacity of 1000k to max out. At 20k per lab, this adds up to 50 labs needed to max your research. Any kind will do it, though the distribution between energy labs, HT labs, and weapon labs will decide how your research pool is divided. It also doesn't matter if you've got a ton of small lab bases or one giant mother of a base. For a perfectly even distribution, you need 17 of each kind of lab. Anything beyond that won't get used anyway.

Also note that cargo bays on space ports don't matter on space ports above colonies. As for rec and med facilities, I think there's a tendency to overrate their importance. They don't hurt at all but up until and including version .51, it's not like a planet is going to grow significantly slower without them. You just can't tax it as hard once it reaches max pop.



Spidey -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:14:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daeromont1

I've looked up some things on my economy and about to do a major overhaul, knowing now that I need to remove the 20 spaceports I have built in favor of defense stations. Having said that, if I only have one spaceport in my empire of roughly 21 planets, will trade still be conducted? I thought the tutorial said something about spaceports being necessary for trade income? Sorry if this is redundant...but I must have missed something in my reading and I have very limited time to play (only about 2 hrs or less each eve)...so I don't want to spend it all reading the net. Thanks!

As much as I'm in favor of having much fewer space ports, there's really not much point in you scrapping that many ports and replacing them with defensive bases instead. Just retrofit the damn things to have the defenses you want and there you go, problem solved.

Also, I'm really not convinced that it's vital to have commerce centers everywhere. What matters is that you have them in your resource hubs and near your borders where there's more foreign traders that might drop by and buy resources. Trade only happens when there's a commerce center but I've never personally seen any evidence that the AI feels obligated to trade at every commerce center you build.

It seems more probable to me that it simply happens if there's a station with something it needs within range, which means some backwater planet isn't going to generate a huge revenue just because you build a commerce center, because the traders will probably use a closer destination. Meanwhile you're stuck with the upkeep.



galenhammond -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 5:44:47 AM)

I am not a "power player" by any stretch of the imagination, nor have I played enough to really dispense tons of my own observable advice. That being said, the consensus that I've seen (and a post from Elliot who practically invented DW) has been to limit the number of starports (either small, medium and/or large) to about 1 per 3 or 4 colonies, and definitely no more than 1 per colonized star system.

The civilian sector AI that handles cargo freight shipments tends to prioritize stockpiling resources at colonies with an orbiting starbase of the "starport" designation. However, if you want you can design a "starbase" generic category orbital station that has the commerce, med and recreation modules with docking bays. You can call it whatever you want....I've designed something in my own games called "outpost" or "trade post" or something similar. That can give the colony the benefits of the commerce, med and rec modules without unduly stockpiling strategic resources at every planet...thus causing an overall empire-wide resource shortage since the freighters are constantly trying to stockpile resources at every colony instead of efficiently moving resources to where they are truly needed.

I hope that made sense.

Regards,
Galen



loki100 -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 7:19:26 AM)

equally, I can claim no great expertise but I share the view that you do NOT need or want a space port at every colony. One unintended consequence is a lot of resources get ferried around to no particular gains.

Now I do build one/more defense base at every colony, and I use that design to put in medical and entertainment units, so I can cover some of the other needs in a different way. These defense bases will do for most of the things that a colony needs.

Again, as above, I'd say concentrate your research into certain bases, built at places with bonuses. You are vulnerable to an act of espionage so may want either a very small alternative source of research or simply take your losses and rebuild (my preference).

I build space ports once I feel I have a new colony that is not intrinsically linked to my existing set. Sometimes this follows on conquest, that you can jump whatever colonisation range you have set up. Equally once I get into mid game, and have a feel for the Empire borders and where I am likely to be warring, I will build a space port there (regardless of other reasons) and make sure its optimised for refuel/repair so that damaged ships can be turned around as quickly as possible.

A lot of the issues in DW is that the various ship types/bases are not the only way to solve a problem. So a spaceport is not the only way to ensure a colony has a medical centre etc.



Nanaki -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 10:52:00 AM)

Except with fewer labs, you can make better use of researcher characters and research bonuses at stellar anamolies, thus netting you more research than you otherwise would have if you spread your research labs across the galaxy.



Bingeling -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 12:47:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Except with fewer labs, you can make better use of researcher characters and research bonuses at stellar anamolies, thus netting you more research than you otherwise would have if you spread your research labs across the galaxy.

I don't think that is correct. You get a global bonus to that area for your best site in each area. Where the site bonus is the research bonus plus any scientist bonus for a scientist on that station/base. So for max gain, put your best energy scientist on the best energy site. If you put the energy scientist on the capital spaceport, the scientist will compete with the best energy site about which bonus is used (as long as the capital is not a bonus location in itself).

It does not matter where the other labs are, they just contribute to the total research lab count.



Nanaki -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:20:43 PM)

Hm. If that is the case, it probably should be explained somewhere because the bonuses generally do not work like they would in most other games of the same genre.



Guedez -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:24:28 PM)

basically, make a capital ship made of research, shields and energy collectors, put the scientist there, and move it when you find a better spot? Or rather, 3 of them, one for each area?



Bingeling -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Hm. If that is the case, it probably should be explained somewhere because the bonuses generally do not work like they would in most other games of the same genre.

It is pretty well explained in the manual. At least in the manual that I just looked in (not sure if was shadows or universe). I am not sure if the "best site with combined station + scientist" is explained, though.

That is, however, clear if you got a few bonus sites and a few scientists at more or less "smart" spots, and view the research station screen.



Nanaki -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:42:43 PM)

Well, it is a rather important distinction because, with most games, it is generally understood that 'location bonuses' are generally confined to that location only, and do not grant bonuses beyond that location. The idea of a location bonus extending to the entire empire is rather unusual and changes the metagame enormously.

It is also not directly stated in the universe manual at all.



Bingeling -> RE: Economy question (6/5/2014 2:47:26 PM)

I think some original design ideas have either never been fully implemented, or one has figured out that it may not be a good idea.

One issue in this game is that the full research effort of an empire being at the fringes of a black hole (or something) is a bad idea, because it is not very hard to shoot down a research station. So "don't put all eggs in one basket", spread labs around a bit, and probably the AI can research at a decent pace, even if at war with the player empire.



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