[FIXED B540] Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (Full Version)

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HailRider -> [FIXED B540] Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/8/2014 11:58:29 PM)

I've been trying out the Scenario Editor, switching from side to side, to see how changing depth changes being picked up on sonar. I am using the scenario Maria & Victoria.

I found that even if I teleport the units (both sides) to deep water where a CZ exists, the boats will always pick up the sub when the sub enters the sonar radius, even if the sub is below the layer (even at max depth). Why is this? I've been trying this for quite a while, and I just don't understand. I thought the sonar would bounce off the layer and not pick up subs below the layer, except when directly above the sub. I checked the ships, and they do not have sonar that drops below the layer. I even got rid of the better ship, and tried a new sub, but no change in this odd behaviour.

Any help would be appreciated.



Dobey455 -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 2:19:40 AM)

There would be a lot of factors at play.

- Are the "detecting units" using Passive or Active sonar?
- Do the "detecting units" have towed arrays?
- How strong is the layer where the detecting and detected units are?

The layer reduces sonar detection of units on the other side, but doesn't completely "block" sonar, so to speak. You CAN still hear units on the other side of the layer if you have a good sonar set and also depending on how strong the layer is. (After all, SSN's travelling deep still hear surface ships above the layer).

Also if the detecting units have towed arrays then being under the layer won't help you too much as towed arrays are deployed below the layer and are usually the best sonar in a ship's suite.

I'm at work at the moment so can't take a look at the attached save.



HailRider -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 3:21:02 AM)

Thanks for responding.

- Are the "detecting units" using Passive or Active sonar?
They are passive for the sub and active for the ships.

- Do the "detecting units" have towed arrays?
Not sure. I looked in the database, and I think there is no towed array. I'm not sure how it would look in the database.

- How strong is the layer where the detecting and detected units are?
I didn't realize there were different strengths of layers. How can I see the strength?

Thanks again for your help.



HailRider -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 3:38:02 AM)

OK, I checked. The strength of the layer was .42. I moved the subs and ships to another area with the highest layer strength I could find (.65), and no change.

The sonars look like they are not towed (I still don't know how that is indicated). Active only at the distance I am looking at.

Any other suggestions?



mikmykWS -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 3:44:52 AM)

Its your active sonar that's maintaining contact. The targets are below the layer but they are very close. Will have our programmer take a look to see what he thinks.

Mike



HailRider -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 4:06:07 AM)

The ship has the active sonar. The subs are passive (the active sonar is off).

The subs show up on the ship's sonars immediately when they enter the sonar radius. Is that considered 'really close'? If so, then when does the layer make a difference? I've tried for several hours to make the layer have a difference by changing various variables, but I cannot seem to do it. it is as if the layer is not there at all. I know I must be missing something here.

A save file, or scenario, showing the layer making a difference would be really helpful. I could then play with that starting point to change variables...



mikmykWS -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 12:21:34 PM)

Sorry if my last post wasn't clear. We're looking into this and want to help if there is an issue.

Mike



Dimitris -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 1:03:44 PM)

Thanks. There was indeed a flaw in the comparison of target range, actual detection range and nominal direct-path limit. In this case the nominal detection range was 3nm, but after considering all the factors (incl. layer) it fell to 0.053nm.

Fixed in Build 540.



Dobey455 -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 1:23:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

The ship has the active sonar. The subs are passive (the active sonar is off).

The subs show up on the ship's sonars immediately when they enter the sonar radius. Is that considered 'really close'? If so, then when does the layer make a difference? I've tried for several hours to make the layer have a difference by changing various variables, but I cannot seem to do it. it is as if the layer is not there at all. I know I must be missing something here.

A save file, or scenario, showing the layer making a difference would be really helpful. I could then play with that starting point to change variables...



I think you are over estimating the effect the thermal layer has.
It does deflect sound, so can be quite effective at masking you from passive sonar, but the pulse from most modern sonars should not have any trouble passing through the layer. Most Western Sub captain would train to never allow themselves to get inside the active sonar cone of a surface ship if at all possible.

With a Nuke sub you could try approaching from the rear quarter (in the baffles where the active sonar doesn't go), or better yet if surface ships are constantly pinging you should be able to stand off and build a really good contact picture from all the noise they are making and fire from a "stand-off" position.

If you just want to experiment with the effects of the layer I think a sub vs sub scenario might be more interesting. Try using something with no towed array - perhaps an Oberon from the 70's vs a November or Whiskey and see how much difference there is in detection range when both are on the same side of the layer and when they are on opposite sides.

Now swap the '70's model Oberon out for the "1993 - 1999" model from the "Australia" list. It will be the same sub, but this model has a towed array - see if you notice how much of an advantage that is. (Even without an array the earlier Oberon is a quieter sub with better sonar, so should get first contact).



HailRider -> RE: Sub/Ship sonar and The Layer (6/9/2014 7:44:26 PM)

Great suggestions. I'll give it a go.

But it looks like there is an error, so I guess I should hold off until the next build to try it.



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