RE: Imbalanced AI? (Full Version)

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Nanaki -> RE: Imbalanced AI? (6/30/2014 11:41:49 AM)

Your rankings are flawed for the following reasons:

- Quameno have nearly twice the research bonus as Zenox. Comparing the two is not even close
- You sell the Securans short. They do not HAVE to use Paradise government, and without it they are a high-growth race with +50% Happiness which lets you tax them very high, and a trade bonus on top of that
- Kaidan can match the Zenox in research, +20% Racial bonus plus +25% Republic bonus gives +45% Research bonus, humans can get +40%, yet nobody exactly rates them as top tier races
- Haakonish gets +15% Military Ship Size and +1 Intelligence Agent, which are usable by Pirates and are only obtainable by having them as your primary race

Honestly, theres only one Tier 1 race, Quameno. Tier 2 would probably be Gizurean, Ikkuro, Ackdarian, Zenox, and Haakonish. Tier 3 would probably be Kaidan, Human, etc.

Even then Zenox/Quameno are only where they are at because of how obscenely overpowered Technocracy is. If Technocracy gets nerfed, Zenox will likely be reduced to Tier 3 or even worse.



t1it -> RE: Imbalanced AI? (6/30/2014 4:17:02 PM)

Not sure if you were referring to me but yeah I forgot the kiadians/humans never play as they're kinda uninteresting but it's true they're also top tier. Haakonish, I thought I had them in.
Securans, all you get aside from growth bonus is +50% happiness and that's awesome but it's also all they have. Meanwhile, worthless troops, no maintenance/research/income bonus or anything of note. Easily Tier 1 if you plan to play peacefully, otherwise I don't see any reason to pick them above gizureans. They're just a spiced up shandar.

Quameno I think are the best but I'm not sure. All they have is research. Yes it's freaking allot of research (which let's you do and have pretty much anything), but other races get large research bonuses and also economic& other bonuses on top of that. You can rush every single wonder tech with Zenox(/kiadians/humans with Rep or Dem) and even gizureans too. I don't think the research discrepancy between quameno and gizurean research is as large as the economic discrepancy once you get to mid game. But if this game was a multiplayer game, then yeah Quameno would be the best for sure.



Nanaki -> RE: Imbalanced AI? (6/30/2014 8:23:30 PM)

I am certain. Fast research means they get Gainax hyperdrives first, which means they get first dibs on ruins, derelicts, and independants. Grabbing an independant with a valuable race lets them diversify and strengthen their economy. As for Gizureans, yes they are extremely prolific but generally they also benefit from lousy AI opposition. In a multiplayer match Gizureans would be screwed, both due to a human Quameno player enormously capitalizing on early tech, and other players sending assassins after the Gizurean's ruler (since, IIRC, if he dies he does not get replaced).

As for the other races, Humans and Kaidan have little to no economic bonus whatsoever. Zenox has a minor one, in the form of its +20% happiness and -10% ship cost combined, but even that is not a whole lot. There actually is not a race that has both research and tech bonuses, it is usually one or the other.



Keston -> RE: Imbalanced AI? (7/1/2014 3:33:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

Yeah, I don't think the game even pretends to make the races balanced. Instead of comparing it to Starcraft, compare it to Europa Universalis. You can play as France or you can play as a one province minor in Ireland. They're very different experiences, and how well you aim to do in a given game is relative to how difficult you've made things for yourself by your race/nation choice.


Yes, indeed, except that DW is vastly more "balanced" in that its starts are like the French randomly starting in Ireland and the Irish in Japan next to the Nubians in Korea. It mixes it up a lot (though a player can set up each species in detail). Each must adapt to make the best of the its strengths in the given circumstances and opportunities while compensating for its weaknesses. And if a species is certifiably "Very Stupid" then shouldn't that prove out?

Also, the process of trying to balance a game is often damaging and can frustrate both the design concept and the players with iterative changes.

Let people rank the contenders and identify their asserted pros and cons - that can be fun as well - if the pros and cons don't change and invalidate yesterday's analysis today.

Such discussion helps us appreciate and pick among DW species that are not exactly iconic or stereotypes that players can identify with from a pre-existing fictional background (space orcs or space vampires or Romulans do tell you what you get by the label).



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