SAM ARM evasion (Full Version)

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trap144 -> SAM ARM evasion (6/30/2014 12:36:22 AM)

Is it possible to evade incoming ARM by shutting down the radar manually and plotting a course? (For mobile SAMs only I assume)

Will auto-evasion do this for me?



thewood1 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (6/30/2014 12:42:20 AM)

In real life, it is difficult to do, especially if the missile is already inbound. Modern ARMs have a good memory. As far as moving, packup time is long enough that I don't think its practical.

As to the game, not sure how abstracted it is.



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (6/30/2014 2:58:37 AM)

I always thought it was the ability of the SAM to shut down and hide which lent to calling the mission of attacking them suppression of enemy air defense rather than destruction. Something I heard in a documentary somewhere or something.

Any info is appreciated.



Agiel -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (6/30/2014 4:14:32 AM)

Well if the battery has to shut down all the while hostile mud-movers are dropping their ordinance then the system isn't doing its mission, so in that sense it is "suppressed".

Also, newer versions of the AGM-88 now have millimetric wave radar seekers (like on the ARH-guided Hellfire of the Longbow), presumably in response to mobile, high-performance SAMs like the SA-15 and navalised SAMs, so that in the event the SAM operators shuts down their radars the active radar seeker will still guide the missile to the emitter. This variant of the HARM is the AGM-88 AARGM.



Gunner98 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (6/30/2014 11:01:19 AM)

Depends entirely on the system I think. The only one I'm familiar with is ADATS and it's quite agile (and out of service[:(]). The ideal situation for them was to be tied into the IADS and never have to fire up the radar, they would be queued onto the target and use FLIR and Laser designation to acquire, track launch and kill. When they needed to, the Radar could be shared by multiple launchers, I think the SOP in the Cdn army was that a troop of 4 would be slaved together with each launcher radiating for 15min an hour. If a threat (ARM) was detected, the radiating launcher would immediately shut down and PUFO (Pack up & .... off), while the other 3 adopted a 5 minute rotation for their radars and kept engaging targets.

As you can see in the photo at the link, it wouldn't take more than 30 seconds to PUFO and they only had to move 500M and fire up the system again, they always had two alternates positions per launcher recced. So back up in less than 5 min. In theory, 2 ARMs at each launcher as the radar fired up, launcher gone by the time they arrived and back up in 5 min or so - repeat... that's a lot of ARMs and a lot of time dedicated to the task for the missile launchers. I'm not sure on the effectiveness of this one but they would do a FLIR sweep prior to firing up the radar in the Altn position in hopes of acquiring a target - easy to call BS on that one at the bar...

Not sure how the game simulates this but in real life, suppression was possible - briefly, but a kill was very hard (in theory).

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/adats/

B



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/1/2014 3:57:57 AM)

So in the game if I am commanding an S-400 battery say, do I shut it down (assuming I want to preserve it) when I see the missiles inbound or is it already too late?



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/1/2014 3:58:54 AM)

Yeah the ADATS is a pretty agile example :) Thanks for sharing your experiences

Would you know if you had a potential ARM inbound? This is theoretically possible by alerting a system for inbounds on constant headings.



Agiel -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/1/2014 4:43:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trap144

So in the game if I am commanding an S-400 battery say, do I shut it down (assuming I want to preserve it) when I see the missiles inbound or is it already too late?


It generally is as missiles with ARM memory in my experience reliably inflict mission kills on SAMs with the airburst, but at that point with the top-end systems like double-digit Russian SAMs, Patriot, or SM-2/6 you can try your hand at leaving them on to intercept them, as they're fairly successful at doing this.

Though that leaves the question as to whether or not you will have enough munitions to deter and/or destroy the main strike package or survive follow-on strikes.



MR_BURNS2 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/1/2014 4:53:48 AM)

I wonder how effective ARM decoys are, after all, SEAD pilots like Dan Hampton say they have hardly any confidence in Harms, and Decoys probably make it even worse.

@Trap144 I think they would see them on radar, and they could see the huge smoketrail too, visibility permitting. Apart from that, Dan Hampton stated in Viper Pilot that they believed that they listened in on their comms, because sometimes when they called "Magnum" or "Slapshot" the Iraqis immeadiately turned off their radars.



Dimitris -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/1/2014 6:42:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trap144
So in the game if I am commanding an S-400 battery say, do I shut it down (assuming I want to preserve it) when I see the missiles inbound or is it already too late?


You can shut it down but whether this will be sufficient to save you will depend on the ARM's tech level and a bit of luck.



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/6/2014 9:32:19 PM)

Ok so bottom line, is actively managing "fighting" SAMs modeled to any degree in CMANO?

i.e., are setup/packup times modeled, blind ARM logic(s) etc.

I tested with Kh-31P (AS-17) and got a neat result. The missile circles last known target location at 30k+ looking for reacquire.



mikmykWS -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/6/2014 11:28:23 PM)

If you get a chance please do post a save. We'll take a look

Mike



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 12:13:37 AM)

After some tests...

There are no packup or deployment times so currently the whole SAM/Aircraft dynamic is broken. The SAM sites can displace instantly after detecting an inbound ARM.

To get the ARM to circle overhead, I used AS-17 vs an S-300 which was moving with the radar having been turned off after the AS-17's were inbound. It's easy enough to setup.



mikmykWS -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 12:58:16 AM)

Ok we'll take a look.

Thanks for posting the file.

Mike



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 3:25:03 AM)

Am I on the beta team? Sorry I'm just posting an observation I don't have files to post.



mikmykWS -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 3:37:44 AM)

No but helps us see exactly what you're seeing which I'm guessing you can see the benefit of. Absolutely your choice though[:)]




trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 3:46:15 AM)

I feel like you guys should have a handle on this without me doing the work for you :D I think you're being lazy. Go tell your beta team.



mikmykWS -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 4:25:08 AM)

Ookay:)



Dimitris -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/28/2014 5:14:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trap144

I feel like you guys should have a handle on this without me doing the work for you :D I think you're being lazy. Go tell your beta team.


Noted.



trap144 -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/29/2014 11:24:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Ookay:)


No worries, I won't report these things in the future.



mikmykWS -> RE: SAM ARM evasion (7/30/2014 12:23:20 AM)

Good to hear[:)]



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