Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (Full Version)

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Ketza -> Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/2/2014 9:25:23 PM)

Turn 10 I surrender. He is just too good at handling the Soviet army. Even leaving a buffer hex he trashes my Panzers and scoots away. Leaving any Axis unit adjacent to a Soviet stack of 2 divisions is suicide. Hell even a bridgehead with a Panzer corps is toast.

I really think its time to scratch the 1-1 2-1 rule. Soviet player experience has surpassed the need for it.

Thoughts?

I am going to play SmokingDave in my next game. I know he is a good Axis player but maybe he will make an occasional error as a Soviet. [:D]

One could hope!



Flaviusx -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/2/2014 9:35:14 PM)

Given the option, I would always forego it playing as the Soviet. I don't feel I need it and it makes things way too easy.



Ketza -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/2/2014 9:38:30 PM)

Agreed Flavius.



smokindave34 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/2/2014 11:15:00 PM)

I believe Moravel said that in 1.08 we will have the option to toggle off the 1-1/2-1 rule. I agree the Soviets don't need it any longer. As far as our game goes, I'm rusty as Soviets (haven't played as Soviet in well over a year) so I'm sure I'll make some unforced errors which should make matters a bit more manageable for you Ketza. I'm not sure when 1.08 is coming out.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/2/2014 11:46:01 PM)

I understand that some people play to take advantage of that rule, but I never have. Very few of my victories are less than 2:1 when the 1:1 rule is in effect.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 12:06:49 AM)

Hi guys,

I am so totally not getting it. I see max(approx) sov offensive (summer 41) CV of about 30 (9 units in three hexes), so having indicated defensive CV of over 16 or so should be a winner for the axis.

I have read some stuff about the value of mass and something called "ready elements" but can't figure how it computes.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 12:12:36 AM)

and wait, there's more. sov arm seems to "deplete" or maybe it's becomes "unready" very easily.

and MP costs/limitation seem to really restrict sov mobility.

why not,as axis, just pound away frontally to get sov morale into low 40's, then not long before they start routing, no?



Flaviusx -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 12:17:21 AM)

Charlie, the best way to figure this out is to sit down, solo, and set up lots and lots of combats. Then repeat those combats, changing the amount of units involved until you find out what the bare minimum is for success. Fiddle with the leaders involved, they make a surprising difference.

It's not an exact science and the combat model is opaque, but after a while, you get a good feel for what you can get away with. It takes surprisingly little to push the Axis back. CVs are deceptive. But here's a rough and ready heuristic: if you can match the displayed defensive CV with your own attack factors and have at least middling leaders (5+ in the relevant categories) it is practically a sure thing. Better leaders let you get away with less than that.

It's not hard to do this. Especially with those early beefy rifle divisions in 1941, if you can fill those out before the TOE changes, you can have plenty of 3 and 4 CV rifle divisions. 2-3 of these will usually match most Axis single divisions out in the open. Some panzers might be a bit tougher and terrain also matters, but the game shows you the effects of terrain on the defensive CV.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 1:31:02 AM)

you're talking about when 1-1 really means 2-1,eh?



bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 3:44:18 AM)

Hey Ketza,

Sorry to see the game end, It was a interesting match up, and you were doing well.
I never contrive to game a game, I have found that the deciding factors are weight of men, and fatigue.

If you have 1 division I'll attack with 2 to 4 if you have three divisions(hexes I rarely attack) I will attack with 9to12. I have found this works wonders regardless of printed values, also a nice trick our friend Hooper introduced to me, is the fatigue attack, you literally wear down the opposing forces. Using quick attacks or deliberate with a single unit,this saps the will to fight..then slam them with weight of men and any hex can fall no matter the type or value.(works as axis too, if you can get past some losses)

If you want to keep the axis rolling dont give the soviet the opportunity to attack you. Distance to the attack is their enemy, push your pockets out further. Oh and never leave Infantry single stacked in front of a line of Russians[:)]

Just my two cents...Hope to see you on the Field again

BO.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 11:19:05 AM)

Say Bo,

Does your (above) attack protocol (sov) work without the 1-1 is really 2-1 for sov.



Ketza -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 11:44:16 AM)

Bomazz you are an amazing player and I wasn't trying to suggest you were gaming the system. You are just extremely good at playing the Soviets and I knew going into the game it was going to be frustrating at times but wanted to try a few things against a top tier player.

Thanks



bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 3:19:37 PM)

Hello Charlie,

I dont know? Like I stated above, I attack with superior weight in men and fresh troops. I really do not count numbers, as I know and love that this game is flexible in that regard. Printed values are .... squishy, they can be double that or half that. So if you get past looking at the numbers and use the formula..weight of men..and fatigue as your guide you will have a much better experience.(as soviet)

As Russian I rarely counter attack until turn 10. After turn 10 I only target over aggressive units left in poor position. And I always attack with far more then needed to push the hex.it is effective at increasing moral of my troops, while keeping losses at a reasonable level. If you take more attacks with fewer troops per hex gaming the system you will increase your losses as well. even with the gamy system the losses can be high even in victory with the soviets in 41.

If you want to be a good soviet player(or just player in general)..play the axis a few times. This will give you an Idea how to make their life miserable..and likewise for axis powers, as it will teach you the weaknesses of your opponents army is movement not attacking, regardless of the gamy 1to1 rules in 41.

that is just my two coppers worth. Dont claim on being much of a player but I do enjoy a good war[:)]



bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 3:22:38 PM)

No worries Ketza, Thanks for the kind words, but I am still learning as well. Though I have improved in lots of ways. Do you ever play the soviets? Just wondering.



Ketza -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 3:47:34 PM)

I do play the Soviets but have switched over to Axis for now.



bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 4:41:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I do play the Soviets but have switched over to Axis for now.


Well let me know when you want to take on the role of Soviet High Command again, and Ill run at you with the Axis powers. I enjoy both roles equally, like playing two different games really.



HITMAN202 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/3/2014 11:11:59 PM)

It's discouraging when such a great game, WITE, twix two great players (Ketza is far too modest) ends in a Soviet victory in 10 turns !!! It's astounding !!! For a German player in a campaign scenario spend 1 1/2 to 3+ hours a turn only to get smashed before the '41 winter... I'd rather watch soccer !!! Sorry guys, no offense to the "futball" fanatics on this bulletin board (I bet Sillyflower feels the same).

Competitive tension between skilled players is crucial to a great game. WITE has become like "futball" to me. I wish many of the insights of Flaviusx were incorporated into the game; not just talked about.



Michael T -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 12:22:42 AM)

Hey Hitman my old mate. You should try DC2 Case Blue. I have been playing it for a couple of months now and its a very good game. Far less micromanagement and the next installment is a game on Barbarossa.

PS the Luftwaffe can actually kill Soviet Tanks!!



bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 2:03:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

It's discouraging when such a great game, WITE, twix two great players (Ketza is far too modest) ends in a Soviet victory in 10 turns !!! It's astounding !!! For a German player in a campaign scenario spend 1 1/2 to 3+ hours a turn only to get smashed before the '41 winter... I'd rather watch soccer !!! Sorry guys, no offense to the "futball" fanatics on this bulletin board (I bet Sillyflower feels the same).

Competitive tension between skilled players is crucial to a great game. WITE has become like "futball" to me. I wish many of the insights of Flaviusx were incorporated into the game; not just talked about.



smashed is a bit of a overstatement. But he did find some counter attacks painful. I think we was trying a new strategy he had cooked up and found it was not working so called the game. That is all. I still enjoy the game, so I continue to play it. Sorry you are jaded upon this gem, if the polishing continues perhaps it will shine again for you?

best regards Bo



Ketza -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 3:15:55 AM)

I did make some headway but a few gambles that needed to work did not. Bomazz is right. I gambled and lost. Back to the drawing board!



bigbaba -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 4:37:29 AM)

playing against "tawarich" Bomazz atm i can confirm that he is maybe one of the best russian players out there. he managed to re-open my pockets in 41 turn after turn and that ruined my 41 campaign.

in summer 42 i evaluated the entire front and came to the conclution that starting a 42 offensive against his red army on steroids[:)] will bring only pain and disaster so i decided to go to defensive mode and start digging. now it's mid 43 and i still hold vast areas in the east with a intact army (4 mio. germans with 4200 tanks) but he still has 2 full years and all i can do is to delay and hope for a draw.

he is also doing a good job with his "probing" attacks prior to the major attacks and there is nothing i can do against that.

i think the main mistake some players do agaist good russian players is to wear down their own panzers in 42 in fruitless attacks. one should go to defensive warfare modus not too late.

beside thet mistakes i did in 41 imho the 1:1 rule in 41 should be removed. an average russian player does not need this advantage anymore and its too easy atm to reopen pockets in 41 for the red army.



bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 5:24:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

playing against "tawarich" Bomazz atm i can confirm that he is maybe one of the best russian players out there. he managed to re-open my pockets in 41 turn after turn and that ruined my 41 campaign.

in summer 42 i evaluated the entire front and came to the conclution that starting a 42 offensive against his red army on steroids[:)] will bring only pain and disaster so i decided to go to defensive mode and start digging. now it's mid 43 and i still hold vast areas in the east with a intact army (4 mio. germans with 4200 tanks) but he still has 2 full years and all i can do is to delay and hope for a draw.

he is also doing a good job with his "probing" attacks prior to the major attacks and there is nothing i can do against that.

i think the main mistake some players do agaist good russian players is to wear down their own panzers in 42 in fruitless attacks. one should go to defensive warfare modus not too late.

beside thet mistakes i did in 41 imho the 1:1 rule in 41 should be removed. an average russian player does not need this advantage anymore and its too easy atm to reopen pockets in 41 for the red army.


Hello Mr Big.

I am really enjoying our game, I was quite surprised/stumped with your non 42 offensive, I was standing around waiting for the hammer to fall. But I am seeing your strategy now as I slog through fortification lines. Time will tell if I can grind you down fast enough. You might be at an advantage I have yet to actually play into 44 as The Russian. So we will see how that goes.

I think German players are too eager in early 42 to throw their armor into operations deep into Russian lines trying to capture Russians in pockets.( I know this first hand thanks Hooper[;)]) Though this is the goal, the rush is the downfall of most opponents. In subsequent games I found actually grinding the Russian front first with infantry and motorized works best then mid to late summer you see good movement. Though I have not played past 43-44 as the German player in this new patch. All my German victories did come from this strategy.

Well enough blathering, back to the front, will have the turn done in the morning Mr Big. Commander Zhukov does not start operations without coffee.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 5:44:34 AM)

Presumably Mr. Zhukov drinks coffee well fortified with vodka. [:)]

DC2 Case Blue is a pretty neat game, btw. I like the card system a lot. If only it was set to a divisional scale. That's the main thing that's held me back from playing it more, pushing around regiments isn't my thing.

The thing I'm playing a lot lately is...Distant Worlds. Matrix has finally put this on Steam. Hope it has strong sales and helps fund a DW2. And I applaud Matrix for finally taking the Steam plunge and putting titles for sale over there.




Michael T -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 9:55:03 AM)

DC3 will apparently be divisional. I might get back in to WITE one day but not till a lot of fixes are done.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 1:33:31 PM)

thx bo,

diversionary attacks, recon in force, probing etc have proven worthless tactics and are not used anymore by competent military organizations. That's the short version. Carpet bombing is the way to go.

Hex flipping and "probing" attacks are cheese to a guy like me. No intention to offend.





bomazz -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/4/2014 6:08:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

thx bo,

diversionary attacks, recon in force, probing etc have proven worthless tactics and are not used anymore by competent military organizations. That's the short version. Carpet bombing is the way to go.

Hex flipping and "probing" attacks are cheese to a guy like me. No intention to offend.



No offense, I just find probing attacks useful when dealing with opponents that love to stack up reserve activations, something that carpet bombing has trouble stopping.



charlie0311 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/5/2014 12:41:44 PM)

Hi Bo,

Was wondering if you've tried "bomb unit" on the hexes with the reserve formations, read somewhere that this causes disruption and lesser chance of activation.

I also use a "what works" style of play. Now playing my 1st game H2H as sov t 54, so not much experience.



HITMAN202 -> RE: Ketza (Axis) vrs Bomazz (7/5/2014 5:45:43 PM)

Bomazz, remember I tend to post "tongue-in cheek." I think WITE is by far the best combat/tactical/strategy stimulation I've ever played. Changes needed in the game stem from the passion so many brilliant players have for WITE and their discovery of amazing tactics/strategy that occur in such a complicated game. My gripe, none-the-less, is shared my many of the experts who are inactive, waiting for changes in key areas.

To be fair, WITE will never be a perfect simulation of WWII eastern front and as it stands, is an illuminating recreation, but changes as discussed ad nauseum need to be made to make it competitive twix the experts.

Personally I don't have the time (ie. energy) to play a campaign and still have a little egg on my face since ending the game with THEPROS over 1 year ago. I've promised myself not to resign again. A campaign game has to be played in the minimum of 2 moves a week (IMO), because it's too hard to remember the continuous flow of strategy and tactics needed.

interesting I played a server game with a "random" opponent, Bomazz himself, over a year ana 1/2 ago and was taught a good, but brief lesson in how aggressive the Soviets can be.

I'm an avid reader of the AAR's and Ketza's are some of my favorites.

One of my top five AAR's of all times was a slugfest when Bomazz (Axis) conquered after huge swings of'41 successes, blizzard failures, and a smashing '42 where surprisngly the Soviets came back.. am I correct Bomazz ??? Was it agsinst, Harrybanna, Sapper or ???




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