What is the real status of TOAW? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III



Message

pz501 -> What is the real status of TOAW? (7/3/2014 4:45:29 AM)

I don't mean this to be any sort of complaint, attack, or attempt to start a war...honestly.

Really, I'm wondering if we can just get a complete, and definitive answer to the title question?

Over the past year (and more) I've heard rumor of development starting, stopping, and starting again. Then on Nov 9, 2013 Ralph posted that development was under way once again, with release hoped for in January - March 2014. Mention was always being made of a 3.5 patch, but then it became a 3.6 patch, and who knows what the current version number is, or what the status of any testing is?

All of this was clearly done with the best of intentions, but we seem to be lacking in the areas of communication and updates. Granted, no one person can do the coding as a full-time job especially if they're a volunteer, but Matrix has the oversight and final publishing approval, so couldn't we get a monthly update or progress report from them?

It appears there are many fine scenarios and updates for scenarios that are depending on a 3.5 (or is it a 3.6?) patch to function under active development, but with no end in sight. I've also seen several promising scenarios (remember the Berlin 1945 project?) and maps (remember the super-detailed Eastern Front map?) that have just vanished.

While it is nice to see the things I mention above, and view the AARs for scenarios that we may or may not ever be able to play, it would be nice to know if one day all of these will finally be available to the general public, rather than the small group of testers/designers who are working on them. (I hope all of that hard work does see the light of day!)

On June 13, 2014 Erik Rutins posted that there would be some news soon, and since then nothing has been said.

I recognize that TOAW is a very old system now, and that the active following must be dropping off. However, what I believe we need is some sort of answer as to whether active development is over, or if there is any cause to hold out even the slimmest of hopes that we will see an update this year, or ever?

I'm not really expecting that anyone on the forum has much information, but maybe Erik or someone else from Matrix will notice this, and share something with us, even if it's bad news.




samba_liten -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/3/2014 7:49:29 AM)

As far as the Berlin project is concerned, I've not completely disappeared. I'm just waiting for the update and the promised increase in map size and number of location names allowed.

I'm most flattered that people still remember my little project though.[&o]



mike1984 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/3/2014 11:30:05 AM)

Regarding the drop off in interest. Someone had mentioned to me in another thread that it could just be that everyone is waiting for some kind of update/patch, and that's why it seems so dead around here. Hopefully that's the case, rather than what you mentioned about TOAW being an old system. It surely is, but then again, people are still playing Risk after 60 years, Monopoly after 84 yrs, Mancala after 1300 yrs, and checkers after 5000 yrs.



pz501 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/3/2014 11:51:22 AM)

Glad to hear that! Yours is one I'm really excited about. I think the East Front map I refer to was being done by Panama...

I'm also stalled in updating and expanding my old "Home Before The Leaves Fall" WW I scenario. (I also have a NATO-WP late 1970's one on hold too.)

From time to time I start up TOAW III, do a little work on it, and then wonder if it will ever get done, since I'd like to make use of some of the improvements mentioned for 3.5 and 3.6.

The basic TOAW system while "old" is one of the best out there, with limitless possibilities. I'd hate to see it slowly fade away, but if that's truly going to be the case, I'd rather get it "straight" from Matrix. I could live with that. I'm just looking for some "closure", to use a term that's been really overused.

For sheer persistence, and hopefulness, I think BigDuke66 deserves some sort of award when it comes to trying to keep TOAW alive, along with many others.



secadegas -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/3/2014 4:43:38 PM)

I tend to agree with everything said before and it's clearly understandable that design projects would like to wait for a new version.

However i would like to remind that the current 3.4 (under 3xBb.exe) it's TOAW best version ever. Either as playing or design platform.

And there are so many excelent scenarios available out there...







r6kunz -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/3/2014 9:07:15 PM)

Good hearing from you, Tom. And good hearing you are still working on Home Before the Leaves Fall. Or at least thinking about it!
It is a great coverage of the opening stages of The Great War. Believe it or not, I actually have it opened as we speak, and a couple of days ago I printed off your word doc. Interesting following your thought process of morphing from the board game to TOAW. I was not familiar with the board game (I just looked it up).

I, too, am working on a WWI scenario- The Guns of August, also inspired by a board game- Avalon-Hill's 1914, as well as France 14 included in the first edition of TOAW.
It is a 10km/hex, one week turns, division level, August to mid-November. Needless to say, I have consulted your OB and TOE as well as all the other TOAW WWI designs to corroborate other sources. (Naturally I would acknowledge these if I post the game).
One of the most interesting online sources is a French site:
http://www.carto1418.fr/
It is a animated week by week flow of WWI army/corps/division level, on period map of France.

And I, also, have been working on a NATO-WP scenario off and on, to incorporate the Modern .eqp file, and the AA changes in 3xBb.exe. Stay tuned.

Take care, keep the faith, and keep us posted.

Cheers



BigDuke66 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 12:37:41 AM)

To the various things addressed here:
@pz501
I would already be happy about a quarterly progress report, no need to do it monthly.
And no need to give me an award, doing it because my own entertainment is at stake, if TOAW ever goes down I don't know any single other game that could replace it.
And btw there are surely other that would be before me in line for an award like Oberst_Klink that started the online petition, all the scenario designers that keep polishing their scenarios, also of course Ralph that kept the game in development through the years and all others of the "old guard" that don't wave the flag no matter how grim the situation is.
Also good to see that your still taking care of your WW1 scenario, not many scenarios cover that war in TOAW.

@polarenper
Well the Berlin map is impressive, no need to wonder why some remember it, I'm still looking forward to play that scenario.
BTW I heard the scenario designer have access to the current beta, maybe you can see if you get your hands on it to proceed with your scenario development.

@mike1984
I really hope as soon as the new patch is had we see a revival of the game and all the activities surrounding it.

@Sekadegas
While that surely can be played, the things that are currently known to come with the next patch seem sooooo exciting it's almost a cold comfort playing the unofficial fixed 3.4. Nonetheless it is at least something to keep the community rolling.

@HPT KUNZ
Oh that side is tasty, if you have any other good sources regarding WW1 please let me know, could really need them at the moment.



pz501 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 1:09:11 AM)

I mostly lurk around various boards here, and over at The Blitz, and a few other sites.

Home Before The Leaves Fall is projected to go to 2.5km Hexes, and either 1/2 Day or 1 Day turns. Units would become base Regiments (instead of Brigades) with the British using Battalions as a base.

Map conversion is at maybe 50%. A dedicated .eqp file is also being done. I need more space for place names, and units in the OOB though. Suspended because of this.

The NATO-WP thing is just a rough idea. Map would be at 5km/Hex, with units being Regiments (for the Pact) and Battalions for NATO. OOB research is complete and so is the TO&E work. I want the map to run from possibly Warsaw in the east, to at least the Rhine in the west, and from at least Flensburg in the north, down to the Alps in the south. Turn length probably would be 1/2 day. Time period 1976-78 just because it's not the more popular '80's, and I was stationed in Germany during that time. I've actually got the complete thing ready to go for HPS's Danube Front '85, but haven't put any units on that map yet...different map/time scale but I got the research done for it first.

Anyway, thanks for all of the kind words, and if you need any help with your WW I or NATO-WP work, I'd be happy to assist.



BigDuke66 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 1:18:35 AM)

Ah I think a saw that thread at the blitz, interesting to utilize the research and bring all that into 2 or maybe one day even more games.



pz501 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 1:41:42 AM)

I did post over at the Blitz around a week ago looking for a partner who is into scenario design and assisting with laying down units, and AI scripts. Looks like that's a no-go, and I'm attempting to delete (haven't managed it yet) the post so I don't waste their space.

What I had envisioned was something between "Bolt Out of The Blue" and stock in complexity, lasting around 1 week to 10 days. Working title is/was "To The Rhine!". Hardest OOB/TO&E work was actually for the French...everything else I either had in my collection, or could get my hands on.

The OOB is finished with the last additions being "Single-use" air units for limited Deep Strikes, and KGB/GRU sabotage units that deploy at game start to give the mobilizing NATO units a hard time. The graphics for units are also done.

I'll probably stay with this for now, since the game system is still "live", and I'd hate to waste 30+ months of research. Who knows? Maybe one day I'll locate a design partner as well.



BigDuke66 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 1:51:47 AM)

Well a week is nothing at the Blitz, it simply got a quieter over the years, also stepping in a co-designer isn't a task you take lightly but I'm sure sooner or later you find one.



secadegas -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 2:32:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

@Sekadegas
While that surely can be played, the things that are currently known to come with the next patch seem sooooo exciting it's almost a cold comfort playing the unofficial fixed 3.4. Nonetheless it is at least something to keep the community rolling.



I can't forsee (most probably that's only me...) what are "the things that are currently known to come with the next patch" that "seem sooooo exciting" and will dramatically modify the enjoyment you can already get with the actual 3.4 version (plus 3xBb.exe).

More hex's? Bigger OOB's? More equipment slots? PO improvements [8|]? Naval interdiction?
In what way these changes will afect the true scenarios "gems" already available?

Toaw community will naturally decrease as we dealing with an almost 15 years old game system. Not due to an absolut need of an upgrade.
And, as it's so common these days, as soon as the "new hypothetic" version gets available most people will start posting about the need for the next upgrade and so on....

We - the remaining few - have an excelent playing platform. Let's use it.











Lobster -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 3:19:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekadegas
I can't forsee (most probably that's only me...) what are "the things that are currently known to come with the next patch" that "seem sooooo exciting" and will dramatically modify the enjoyment you can already get with the actual 3.4 version (plus 3xBb.exe).

More hex's? Bigger OOB's? More equipment slots? PO improvements [8|]? Naval interdiction?
In what way these changes will afect the true scenarios "gems" already available?

Toaw community will naturally decrease as we dealing with an almost 15 years old game system. Not due to an absolut need of an upgrade.
And, as it's so common these days, as soon as the "new hypothetic" version gets available most people will start posting about the need for the next upgrade and so on....

We - the remaining few - have an excelent playing platform. Let's use it.


In approximately 500 million years the luminosity of the sun will increase to the point where the oceans will evaporate away and life as we know it on the surface of Earth will cease to exist. So we might as well kill off everything right now since the end is inevitable. What's the point in going on?

Defeatist attitudes are never good.

Also, no need to post about the need for something after 3.x since 4.x is already in the works. Besides, what is wrong with trying to make something better? Reading the 'Wishlist' will reveal what people want and there are most certainly some things there that could be considered exciting. 3.x has been stretched about as far as it can go. 4.x will be a new Opart game. Now that is exciting, at least to me.

There will always be grogs who want to play a good hex based game regardless of how old it is and the large numbers of old and new scenarios is a good indication of how flexible this system is and will continue to be. Adding to the flexibility can only make it better. If Ralph/Matrix can create an Opart that will make each scenario seem to be new a game in itself then how could that be bad? Giving scenario designers the ability to do this can only make the game better. Hopefully I'll live long enough to see the new 4.x TOAW.



pz501 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 3:37:24 PM)

Caught this just before leaving to do some 4th of July things, and really glad I did.

If there is really a TOAW IV in the works, it would be a huge help if Matrix could make a formal announcement and open a new forum for it. Sure, there'll be a lot of "when?" comments, but I think the vast majority of us would be satisfied with periodic updates and progress reports. We'd have something to really look forward to, since TOAW would be moving to the next level. Worth waiting for.

It would also be nice if a final 3.x patch could be issued, but I for one would understand entirely if Matrix and Ralph were skipping that and going directly to TOAW IV instead.

It's just a matter of communication and information.



secadegas -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 3:46:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekadegas
I can't forsee (most probably that's only me...) what are "the things that are currently known to come with the next patch" that "seem sooooo exciting" and will dramatically modify the enjoyment you can already get with the actual 3.4 version (plus 3xBb.exe).

More hex's? Bigger OOB's? More equipment slots? PO improvements [8|]? Naval interdiction?
In what way these changes will afect the true scenarios "gems" already available?

Toaw community will naturally decrease as we dealing with an almost 15 years old game system. Not due to an absolut need of an upgrade.
And, as it's so common these days, as soon as the "new hypothetic" version gets available most people will start posting about the need for the next upgrade and so on....

We - the remaining few - have an excelent playing platform. Let's use it.


In approximately 500 million years the luminosity of the sun will increase to the point where the oceans will evaporate away and life as we know it on the surface of Earth will cease to exist. So we might as well kill off everything right now since the end is inevitable. What's the point in going on?

Defeatist attitudes are never good.

Also, no need to post about the need for something after 3.x since 4.x is already in the works. Besides, what is wrong with trying to make something better? Reading the 'Wishlist' will reveal what people want and there are most certainly some things there that could be considered exciting. 3.x has been stretched about as far as it can go. 4.x will be a new Opart game. Now that is exciting, at least to me.

There will always be grogs who want to play a good hex based game regardless of how old it is and the large numbers of old and new scenarios is a good indication of how flexible this system is and will continue to be. Adding to the flexibility can only make it better. If Ralph/Matrix can create an Opart that will make each scenario seem to be new a game in itself then how could that be bad? Giving scenario designers the ability to do this can only make the game better. Hopefully I'll live long enough to see the new 4.x TOAW.



You're right...

You'll keep wishing and awaiting for Toaw 4.x

Meanwhile, I, as a truly defeatist, will keep playing and enjoying one excelent game...











Lobster -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 3:49:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Caught this just before leaving to do some 4th of July things, and really glad I did.

If there is really a TOAW IV in the works, it would be a huge help if Matrix could make a formal announcement and open a new forum for it. Sure, there'll be a lot of "when?" comments, but I think the vast majority of us would be satisfied with periodic updates and progress reports. We'd have something to really look forward to, since TOAW would be moving to the next level. Worth waiting for.

It would also be nice if a final 3.x patch could be issued, but I for one would understand entirely if Matrix and Ralph were skipping that and going directly to TOAW IV instead.

It's just a matter of communication and information.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3462345
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3462323

This stuff isn't really that hard to find. And since they are threads initiated by Ralph it's about as official as it can get.



Lobster -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/4/2014 3:56:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekadegas

You're right...

You'll keep wishing and awaiting for Toaw 4.x

Meanwhile, I, as a truly defeatist, will keep playing and enjoying one excelent game...



Well, since you are a self professed defeatist then you probably get exactly what you hope for, nothing. Myself, I enjoy making scenarios and helping others do the same and am doing a couple of large projects now. TOAW 3.whatever is well along and no need to wish for 4.x since it'a already in the works. Looking to the future and hoping for better things is a good thing. It's what we as humans do.



jmlima -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/5/2014 9:09:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekadegas

You're right...

You'll keep wishing and awaiting for Toaw 4.x

Meanwhile, I, as a truly defeatist, will keep playing and enjoying one excelent game...



Well, since you are a self professed defeatist then you probably get exactly what you hope for, nothing. Myself, I enjoy making scenarios and helping others do the same and am doing a couple of large projects now. TOAW 3.whatever is well along and no need to wish for 4.x since it'a already in the works. Looking to the future and hoping for better things is a good thing. It's what we as humans do.


Its not being defeatist but, I've stated this before and will say it again, if you cannot do and release a patch for an existing and known software within a reasonable time frame, there is no way you will be able to produce an entirely new version within any reasonable time. However, you may end with Combined Arms / Battlefields v2.0.

To be quite honest, I've come to quite enjoy playing 3.4, use some house rules for usage of red light supply units and for 'ignore losses' defending, and that's it. Don't even bother hoping or expecting for any further patches or versions of TOAW.



pz501 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/6/2014 2:16:48 PM)

Well, just speaking for myself, I think there is cause for a very slim hope based on what Erik posted back on 6-13-2014.

Since tomorrow is the first business day after a long weekend, maybe someone from Matrix will comment with something other than a cryptic "soon".

Personally, if there is never to be a TOAW IV (or is it TOAW 4.0?) I'd be satisfied with some official last patch that fixes the AA, supply, and ignore losses problems, AND allows for larger maps with more place names. (I mean a Matrix official patch - I'm aware of the unofficial fixes, and I do use them myself.)

Even if that doesn't happen, I think we all can agree that Norm Koger gave us a great and classic system with TOAW, and Ralph and Matrix did a superb job upgrading it to TOAW III.

If 3.4 is as far as it goes officially, then so be it.



Falcon1 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/6/2014 4:47:00 PM)

I agree that this game will be great for a long time even if there isn't another update.



shunwick -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/6/2014 6:14:32 PM)

Have faith.

Best wishes,
Steve



USXpat -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/7/2014 9:43:34 PM)

An assortment of misquotes from famous people on the subject of TOAW and its future...

I have not yet begun to play TOAW IV! - Captain John Paul (Jones)

The whole history of the Operational Art of War has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired. - Stephen Hawking

Make TOAW IV or Die, Death is not the worst of evils! - General John Stark

If everyone isn't playing TOAW, then somebody isn't thinking. - General George Patton

In all my perplexities and distresses, the Operational Art of War has never failed to give me light and strength. - General Robert E. Lee

Happiness and the Operational Art of War are inseparably connected. - General George Washington

In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has played the Operational Art of War most. - FM Erwin Rommel

It is sometimes tougher to play TOAW than fight the French. - General Heinz Guderian

There are things in the Operational Art of War which are not as they seem. - General Georgy Zhukov

How can anyone play TOAW in a country that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese? - General Charles de Gaulle

Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of players who think you can't continue to attack when at 33% readiness and 1% supply! - Napolean Bonaparte

All the songs we do are basically about one of three things: booze, sex or the Operational Art of War. - Bon Scott

Of all the things I've lost I miss my original copy of Century of Warfare the most. - Ozzy

I invented the Operational Art of War! - Al Gore

For me, it is far better to grasp the Operational Art of War as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

Did I ever tell you you play a very irritating game of TOAW, Mr. Spock? Captain James T. Kirk

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace – but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me The Operational Art of War IV or give me death! - Patrick Henry

When you’re a kid, they tell you it’s all… Grow up, get a job, get married, get a house, have a kid, and that’s it. But the truth is, combat resolution in TOAW is so much stranger than that. It’s so much darker. And so much madder. And so much better. - Doctor Who, Elton Pope, Season 2, Episode 10.

All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: TOAW. - Winston Churchill.

TOAW was, is and always will be to me the best game in the world. - Babe Ruth

I ain't the same person I was when I bit that guy's ear off. - Mike Tyson

Money was never a big motivation for me, except as a way to keep score. The real excitement is playing The Game. - Donald Trump

I like TOAW. That's what I'll miss the most... I'm not sure anybody ever liked this as much as I've liked it. - Bill Clinton

I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to see a TOAW IV. - George W. Bush




BigDuke66 -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/7/2014 10:31:08 PM)

Ha excellent!!!



Lobster -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/8/2014 2:02:21 AM)

You forgot this one:

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that plays TOAW with us
Shall be our brothers; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in the world now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they did not play,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That played TOAW with us.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/8/2014 3:14:26 AM)

Two times armed is he whose cause is just, but three times armed is he who’s played TOAW the must – Nate Forrest.

Fat, drunk, and never having played TOAW is no way to go through life, son – Dean Wormer.

May the TOAW be with you – Obi-Wan Kenobi

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning - Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore.

My mama always said life was like a game of TOAW – you never know what you’re going to get – Forrest Gump.

As God is my witness, I’ll never be without TOAW again – Scarlett O’Hara.

You had me at “TOAW” – Dorothy Boyd.

My precious TOAW – Gollum.

You can’t handle TOAW! – Colonel Jessup.



shunwick -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/9/2014 8:25:39 PM)

I have come here to chew bubblegum and play TOAW. And I'm all outta bubblegum. - John Nada.

Best wishes,
Steve



fogger -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/10/2014 1:12:03 PM)

You guys are watching too many movies &/or reading books and not playing enough TOAW. [:-]



walkra -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/15/2014 12:35:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Well, just speaking for myself, I think there is cause for a very slim hope based on what Erik posted back on 6-13-2014.

Since tomorrow is the first business day after a long weekend, maybe someone from Matrix will comment with something other than a cryptic "soon".

Personally, if there is never to be a TOAW IV (or is it TOAW 4.0?) I'd be satisfied with some official last patch that fixes the AA, supply, and ignore losses problems, AND allows for larger maps with more place names. (I mean a Matrix official patch - I'm aware of the unofficial fixes, and I do use them myself.)

Even if that doesn't happen, I think we all can agree that Norm Koger gave us a great and classic system with TOAW, and Ralph and Matrix did a superb job upgrading it to TOAW III.

If 3.4 is as far as it goes officially, then so be it.

quote:

Well, just speaking for myself, I think there is cause for a very slim hope based on what Erik posted back on 6-13-2014.

Since tomorrow is the first business day after a long weekend, maybe someone from Matrix will comment with something other than a cryptic "soon".

Personally, if there is never to be a TOAW IV (or is it TOAW 4.0?) I'd be satisfied with some official last patch that fixes the AA, supply, and ignore losses problems, AND allows for larger maps with more place names. (I mean a Matrix official patch - I'm aware of the unofficial fixes, and I do use them myself.)

Even if that doesn't happen, I think we all can agree that Norm Koger gave us a great and classic system with TOAW, and Ralph and Matrix did a superb job upgrading it to TOAW III.

If 3.4 is as far as it goes officially, then so be it.


I Agree.



Grognard -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/17/2014 2:59:56 AM)

....as above, but, also with a bump to the 2k unit limit. After all these years (and scenarios) - still can't do a proper Rgt level Barbarossa w/o it.........



Oberst_Klink -> RE: What is the real status of TOAW? (7/17/2014 8:38:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard

....as above, but, also with a bump to the 2k unit limit. After all these years (and scenarios) - still can't do a proper Rgt level Barbarossa w/o it.........

The FitE2 team is doing just that. There's an AAR about the beta-testing of FitE2, Trooper.

Klink, Oberst



Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.671875