Best Race at start? (Full Version)

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aaatoysandmore -> Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 4:54:43 AM)

Well, I went thru all of them and looked at what bonuses they all give and negatives and weighing them all out I am convinced that the Ikkuro are the best race starting race. [:)]

Closely 2nd is the Wekkaru and 3rd I like the Guzurean except for the -100% no new leader thing.

I looked for the most help money wise and ship maint wise as money seems to always be a problem during the game.(for me anyways) Of course these races also come with a population bonus and that is a plus too. But, with all the bonuses the Ikkuro get -10 maint costs and +10 income that's like a lot of move in money resources. Plus faster constructing ships is also a plus. Faster building = more money in the long run. [:)]

So, which race do you like the best and why?



ParagonExile -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 5:51:05 AM)

The best race (i.e. the easiest to play as) are the Quameno.

They have a very high natural research ability, and they have access to technocracy, which doubles their already huge advantage. I think at final count they have a +80% research bonus, which lets them breeze through the tech tree years before the other races are even half done.

:3

I like to use a custom race I made, with small bonuses to every field of play, it suits me best.



Airpower -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 6:10:52 AM)

Quameno. Not even close.

Edit: Oh you asked why. Because they research almost twice as fast as any other race. Research is the game's biggest bottleneck, only increasing as your empire's strategic value increases. And the higher your strategic value goes, the slower your research ceiling grows. So the Quameno's 40% racial research buff puts them insurmountably ahead of any other race, and those other races have no reliable way to catch up.



Keston -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 8:54:50 AM)

In the collaborative AAR video year 15, Haree78 (the extended mod's creator) suggested Tairoshans as a starter - they are cheerful and industrious and generally get along well with others.



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 10:20:27 AM)

Quameno's bonus is actually 90%, 50% from technocracy and 40% from racial. Yeah, fairly rediculous. I have been working on a balance mod that would even things out a bit.

quote:


I like the Guzurean except for the -100% no new leader thing.


Thats actually a Bonus, believe it or not. The problem with new leaders is that they almost always start with lousy skills and usually get replaced before their skills ever build up to anything meaningful, but Gizureans do not have to worry about this thus they can get some frighteningly powerful leaders.



Spidey -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 10:25:58 AM)

Tairoshans aren't a vanilla race, though.

And regarding the vanilla races, I'm thinking the Gizureans are one of the easier races to play with. Enormous growth, low maintenance. Makes it easy to get an advantage and makes it pretty cheap to build enough ships to crush the immediate enemy.

The alternative would be Quameno for their research. The Ikkuro are generally nice but their advantages are less specialized. Kiadians and Humans on repub or democracy would also not be bad choices. Good science rates for both of them, with the former also having an added energy bonus and the latter having espionage. And the Haakonish are probably not too challenging either, since they also have a nice wide mix of bonuses.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 11:07:27 AM)

How does one make a custom race. I'd like that even better as I do like research bonuses while making or saving more money. To me research and money has always been my favorite choice (played a lot of civilization)



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 11:40:05 AM)

Generally, Gizureans and Quameno are best. Gizureans are probably better long-term choice because their low maintenance lets you spam lots of ships and bases, and their ruler can get rediculous stats because he never gets replaced no matter the government (Yeah, Hive Mind is not mandatory). If it is a player vs player enviornment, though, Gizureans weaknesses become much more obvious because a player will ruthlessly send assassins after the Gizurean ruler and a player Quameno will be able to capitalize much more on early FTL tech.



Aeson -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 1:10:04 PM)

quote:

Gizureans are probably better long-term choice because their low maintenance lets you spam lots of ships and bases,

Don't know that I agree with this part, as in the long run you can always incorporate a population of a given species, if that species is available in the game, and gain its bonuses, and once the population is sufficiently large you get its full bonuses. The ridiculously strong leader is certainly a long-term advantage of the Gizureans, though as noted it is also a vulnerability if you're unlucky and someone pulls off an assassination or if you lose your homeworld or see it bombarded while your leader is present.



Keston -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 1:14:10 PM)

There is a nuance between best/easiest to play vs. best positioned to win with best play, but the consensus for the latter seems to be that above for vanilla species.

And most exciting, fun or educational is a different question.

It didn't take long to be won over by the additions in the extended palette of races with interesting additions.






Retreat1970 -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 1:58:59 PM)

<----

P.S. Nanaki everytime I read your sig I lol



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 2:09:20 PM)

I forgot to mention, if you are playing pirates, most of the racial and government bonuses are irrellevant. The only bonuses relevant for pirates are tech, starting characters, troop strength, additional intelligence agents, and military/civilian ship size. Best choices to that end are Gizureans (mainly for the never dying leader) and Haakonish for the intelligence agent and military ship size bonuses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

It didn't take long to be won over by the additions in the extended palette of races with interesting additions.



I think it would be better to focus on making the current palette more interesting. Given, the game gives you limited tools to that end which sucks.



Keston -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 8:30:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
.... The only bonuses relevant for pirates are tech...


What do you mean by tech? Special racial components?

Or modifiers? IIRC I read that pirates don't pick up racial modifiers (or at least not bonuses) for having enough of a race in their empire (meaning on fully owned pirate planets).



DeadlyShoe -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 9:02:26 PM)

Teekans are probably the best Shadows era race. They breed fast, they get Mercantile Guild, and they get good income bonuses. The combination makes them a shoo-in for economic powerhouse.




ciadude2 -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/3/2014 10:53:45 PM)

Quameno can be ridiculously powerful if you're good at optimizing your research paths(though because of their huge bonus in research you don't even have to be REALLY good at optimizing them).

Gizureans would probably be my first pick for a military powerhouse.

Humans and Ackdarians can be really good too, as they're fairly well balanced.

Dhayuts can be a really powerful race militarily as well, as they have good troops and their racial warp drive makes them wonderful for early game blitzing.

Ikkuros can be hard to defeat with their racial repair bot tech making their bases much more durable(in my experience).

"Best" is subjective, as it changes depending on your play style, and just about any race can be the best depending on how you play them. That's part of why I love DW so much.



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 12:00:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

What do you mean by tech? Special racial components?


Racial components.

quote:


Humans and Ackdarians can be really good too, as they're fairly well balanced.


Humans are mediocre. They are not terrible, but they generally lack really good perks. Ackdarians, have enormous ships, a construction speed bonus, and research/ship maintenance bonuses. Very powerful. Although I would consider the Haakonish probably most well-rounded, considering the Haakonish get bonuses to everything except research.

quote:


"Best" is subjective, as it changes depending on your play style, and just about any race can be the best depending on how you play them. That's part of why I love DW so much.


This is just plain wrong unfortunately. Though the good news is that the lack of multiplayer makes it impossible to prove.



DeadlyShoe -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 12:20:33 AM)

quote:

Humans are mediocre. They are not terrible, but they generally lack really good perks. Ackdarians, have enormous ships, a construction speed bonus, and research/ship maintenance bonuses. Very powerful. Although I would consider the Haakonish probably most well-rounded, considering the Haakonish get bonuses to everything except research.

Haakonish are strong, but they have hidden maluses in their extreme xenophobia. You can't really play them as an assimilate everyone race because of this so they have limited ability to benefit from other racial bonuses.

great race for pirates though



Spidey -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 12:39:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

Teekans are probably the best Shadows era race. They breed fast, they get Mercantile Guild, and they get good income bonuses. The combination makes them a shoo-in for economic powerhouse.

They suffer from that -20% military ship size, though. As nice as it is to swim in money, that in itself won't matter unless you've got something worthwhile to spend it on, and Teekan ships are always going to be relatively weaker than the opposition.



Aeson -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 12:45:11 AM)

That, and that bonus they get to civilian ship size isn't really worth anything once you get to size-300 construction or better. There's not really any good reason to make civilian ships much bigger than that.



Spidey -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 1:14:02 AM)

@ Nanaki

quote:

Humans are mediocre. They are not terrible, but they generally lack really good perks.

You have a rather aggressive definition of mediocre. Humans have good research speed, a happiness buff, and a bonus to spycraft. That's hardly mediocre, even if none of the bonuses really stand out individually. Humans under repub or democracy will do quite well.

The way I see it, there's really no argument to make against Quameno as the best race. The next positions on the ladder are a bit arguable, with the Gizureans, the Zenox, the Ikkuro, the Ackdarians, and the Haakonish being in for a shout. Let's say those are the "best" six races. That still leaves a field of 14 and Humans, with their potential 40% research bonus as well as decent espionage, are probably one of the better races left.

@ Aeson

Indeed.



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 2:03:54 AM)

Humans do not have a happiness buff. Just a +15% Espionage, +15% Research, and +1 Intelligence agent.

1st and 2nd are Quameno and Gizureans, without a doubt. Gizureans mainly because of their immortal rulers capable of training up some really huge bonuses, their insane growth rate, and their extremely high maintenance savings. 3rd, 4th, and 5th would probably be Ikkuro, Haakonish, and Ackdarian. Zenox is probably 6th or 7th, and only because of Technocracy being so OP. Considering the definition of 'mediocre', Humans being around 10th place means they fit that definition perfectly. They are neither great or crap, but rather somewhere in the middle.

As for 40% Research bonus, Ackdarians can get 35% Research and 20% maintenance savings and +20% Military ship size and a massive boost to colony construction. The thing is, Humans +15% Research and Espionage bonuses are pretty decent, but what makes humans crap is that they have absolutly no bonuses aside from that. Haakonish, Ackdarian, and Ikkuro all have a ton of secondary benefits. Humans just have Corporate Nationalism which is a giant pile of crap.



Tcby -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 2:22:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

Humans do not have a happiness buff. Just a +15% Espionage, +15% Research, and +1 Intelligence agent.

1st and 2nd are Quameno and Gizureans, without a doubt. Gizureans mainly because of their immortal rulers capable of training up some really huge bonuses, their insane growth rate, and their extremely high maintenance savings. 3rd, 4th, and 5th would probably be Ikkuro, Haakonish, and Ackdarian. Zenox is probably 6th or 7th, and only because of Technocracy being so OP. Considering the definition of 'mediocre', Humans being around 10th place means they fit that definition perfectly. They are neither great or crap, but rather somewhere in the middle.

As for 40% Research bonus, Ackdarians can get 35% Research and 20% maintenance savings and +20% Military ship size and a massive boost to colony construction. The thing is, Humans +15% Research and Espionage bonuses are pretty decent, but what makes humans crap is that they have absolutly no bonuses aside from that. Haakonish, Ackdarian, and Ikkuro all have a ton of secondary benefits. Humans just have Corporate Nationalism which is a giant pile of crap.


So according to you they are neither great nor crap, but at the same time crap [sm=00000622.gif]

Edit: on a more constructive note, I am interested in the possibilities of corporate nationalism...I think it can be made to work rather well. Probably only in a shadows start though. It would require some very unorthodox playing.



Tcby -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 4:43:45 AM)

EDIT: Just remembered what this thread is meant to be about. Sorry for derailing things...will start another thread.



Keston -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 6:43:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey


They suffer from that -20% military ship size, though. As nice as it is to swim in money, that in itself won't matter unless you've got something worthwhile to spend it on, and Teekan ships are always going to be relatively weaker than the opposition.


I'm curious what they would do. Could massive wealth fuel vast swarming hordes of shield-bypassing fast attack ships that gut large ships like a wave of piranhas?

Someone mentioned a Q-ship strategy - arming some civilian ships enough to bear the burden of combat. Is this even possible now?



Tcby -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 7:29:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keston

Someone mentioned a Q-ship strategy - arming some civilian ships enough to bear the burden of combat. Is this even possible now?


Civilian ships can only have their tactics set to evade. They can also only carry a single weapon. So...probably not, unless you get quite creative.

Thankfully tractor beams are not considered weapons, so you can place multiples of those on civilian ships as protection.



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 10:46:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
So according to you they are neither great nor crap, but at the same time crap


Crap in comparison to the top 5 races.

quote:


Edit: on a more constructive note, I am interested in the possibilities of corporate nationalism...I think it can be made to work rather well. Probably only in a shadows start though. It would require some very unorthodox playing.


Garbage. The AI actually knows how to use corporate nationalism, in theory, just that it is really crap. I saw a human-race AI manage to kill itself, despite being 3rd place in overall power with Way of the Ancients government, by constantly switching back and forth between Way of the Ancients and Corporate Nationalism. All its colonies rebelled and it eventually lost all but 2 or 3 colonies.



Tcby -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 12:01:35 PM)

Your example doesn't match your claim that the AI knows how to use it...the AI killing itself via rebellion (and by switching away from way of the ancients!) shows that it doesn't know how to use the government type. It is obviously not appropriate once you have multiple colonies due to rebellion chance. In my own testing it is quite straightforward: it simply represents an opportunity to tax at 100% without the usual drawbacks, for a limited time. 2-3 years seems to be ideal.

It suits the 0% tax approach. Specifically, it is useful in the period where you briefly ramp up your tax rate in anticipation of large expenditure. The months prior to achieving hyperdrive capability (ie mass explorer purchase), wonder unlocking, or large scale military purchases are obvious examples. It also lets you quickly generate the funds for timely crash research. Early game.

Also a minor correction: the Humans do have a happiness bonus. It is in the form of the 'History of the Humans' event.

Your choice of wording is confusing me though. If something is crap because it doesn't result in a race equal to the best 5, then the humans are crap. The way we make (and phrase) value judgments differs,so I don't know whether discussions based on a value judgement are going to get us anywhere. I think there's a large divide between something being usable and it being crap.

If you want to discuss this further take it up with me in the thread I made. This isn't a thread about whether the humans are crap, it's about a good starting race. As for the question posed in this thread I already gave my answer long ago (it wasn't humans), so there's not much point me continuing this discussion here [:)]



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 12:58:23 PM)

Crap in comparison. Yes, in the grand scheme of things humans are mediocre, but when we are talking about the best races in the game they are crap. It is relative.

As for the happiness bonus, you are by no means garunteed to get that event, infact, I have played humans twice (as a newbie) and I never got that event at all, and these were fairly long, multi-hundred year games. You cannot say that is a 'happiness' bonus because it is not.



ciadude2 -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 2:07:58 PM)

I'm still of the opinion that a good player can take just about any race and beat just about any other race.



Nanaki -> RE: Best Race at start? (7/4/2014 2:53:09 PM)

Well yeah, the AI is not exactly challenging, so that is a fairly useless statement to make. The whole point of this topic is to determine the best races.



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