RE: Weapons Balancing (Full Version)

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Aeson -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/18/2014 6:52:23 PM)

quote:

But I have thought about how gun size and energy requirements fit in and really both of these come down to the effect on size and how many guns you can fit on a ship. Higher energy requirements mean more engines -- which adds to the space requirement.

The problem with doing this isn't so much that it's not useful or that you can't have a fraction of a reactor in practice so much as that it makes it more difficult to create and use the spreadsheet. The purpose of the spreadsheet is really only to get an idea of where the weapons probably stand next to one another anyways, which gives you a sense of what you might want to test in game to see if something is out of whack. Beyond that, if you're going to include the size required for the reactor, what about the size required for the life support unit and habitation module required for every X size units of stuff? Or the fuel cells required to have enough fuel for X seconds of combat time? Do I need (or really even want) to make a table for each reactor in the game? There's 17 possible reactors, and while if you do the spreadsheet properly it shouldn't be too difficult to create the others, do you really want to have to compare weapons across 17 different reactor configurations? Should you restrict it to the reactors likely to be used with a given weapon system (e.g. a Pulse Blaster probably won't be used with anything other than a Fission I or a Basic Space Reactor, while a Titan Beam is unlikely to be used with anything less than a Quantum or Fusion Reactor)? How about reactors supporting fractional amounts of weapons? A Quantum Reactor III can support 8.8 Titan Beams by output. Do I round this to 8 Titan Beams or 9 Titan Beams? Do I leave it as-is and compute the size requirements of the setup as if I have 80% of a Titan Beam installed on my ship? Do I add a fraction of a reactor in to cover that last 20% of a Titan Beam?

How about other aspects of the design? Let's say I like my ships to have 20 cruise speed. I know that the speed formula is (total engine thrust)/(total ship size), so I can compute the size of additional thrusters I'd need to add to the minimum required set of components if I include X size units worth of weapons in order to maintain the fleet standard cruise speed; there's a similar formula for turn speed, and so I can do the same thing for maneuvering jets. I also know that I need 3 size units worth of life support and habitation modules for every X units of stuff I put on my ship, and I need 1 energy collector for every Y life support and habitation modules to cover their static requirements while the ship is not moving and inside a system.

In the end, what it really comes down to is that you have to pick a stopping point for what you're including in your spreadsheet. Any spreadsheet that doesn't include a full ship design is going to be flawed to some degree, at least as far as being an accurate picture of how the weapons compare to one another within the game, and any spreadsheet that does include a full ship design is going to be limited in applicability by how similar your designs are to mine or to any other person's designs. The more stuff you include in the spreadsheet, the harder it becomes to make the spreadsheet or use it (do I really want to sort through 17 tables showing weapon DPS per size unit or some other such thing for each weapon, with the difference between each table being the reactor used?). Spreadsheets are a tool, but they aren't the only tool, and they're limited in what they can show you.

Beyond that, the focus of these spreadsheets has mostly been weapon DPS. However, weapon DPS is not the whole picture. Anti-armor performance is to some degree tied to per-shot damage rather than raw DPS (it's also tied to rate of fire and thus to DPS, but DPS isn't the whole picture), nor do the spreadsheets consider the impact of countermeasures and targeting systems, or the inherent targeting bonus of phasers (and the spreadsheets kind of have to ignore this aspect of the game, since at the very least I don't know how to model the game's weapon accuracy since I don't have any idea of what the unmodified hit rates are or how tracking and countermeasures interact or how tracking and the phaser targeting bonus stack, or even if engagement range matters for how often weapons hit; someone else might, of course, but once again that's an additional layer of complexity within the spreadsheet if you decide to include it).

quote:

By the way, can anyone quantify "partially bypasses shields"?

While I'm not certain, I think this is a 20% or so chance for a shot from a railgun to not damage the shields of a ship and instead hit the target's armor (or hull, if no armor is present). Railguns are not particularly good at penetrating armor, but if they do manage to do it, they'll start damaging internal components, which tends to cause the opponent to flee; if you manage to destroy the hyperdrive, then you have trapped the target (at least, unless it has repair systems, in which case you've temporarily trapped the target), and damage to other systems can also be useful for winning an engagement. Causing an enemy ship to flee due to hull damage is not necessarily a good thing, depending on what you're trying to accomplish, but it's also usually not a bad thing. Of course, you also have to consider that if 20% or so of your hits do not affect the shields, you're less able to overcome the shield regeneration, which means that your fleet might be disadvantaged unless the railguns penetrate armor and start taking out shield generators or weapons.




Unbroken -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/22/2014 2:55:45 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Icemania

What are the community views on Area Weapons?



As a new-ish player, I've really only played extensively (using the non-extended AI improvement mod) with one area weapon, that being the Devastator Pulse.

In my games, I've utilized the DP on a purpose-built destroyer as a tool for softening or outright demolishing static defenses, which the DP does extremely well. Even AI races that set up 4 defence bases in addition to their LSP at their homeworld don't stand a chance in hell of stopping one of my destroyers built for this role if their fleets are absent.

I cannot overstate how easy assaulting enemy homeworlds is using the DP in this fashion. Yes, the destroyer might die, but when you're trading a 7,000 credit ship for over 30,000+ credits in orbital facilities, it is enormously worth it, especially when deploying your actual fleet would result in much greater losses.

In contrast to the DP's godliness against bases, it is almost helpless against enemy ships. This is because the area of effect has never worked for me against them, as most times I sent my destroyer(s) to level pirate bases, I often have to run away when reinforcements show up. The DP will flatten one enemy vessel instantly, but only one every twelve seconds. Should my destroyer get swarmed and stuck in a hyperdeny mudhole, it is as good as dead.

I believe the weapon's weakness against ships is due to the fact that the target has to survive the initial hit in order for the shockwave (the damage AND the graphic effect) to be generated. Against spaceports and the like, this is almost a certainty; against soft targets like pirate escorts, this never occurs. I have also never had a case of friendly fire when deploying the DP, even when using the destroyer as cheap defender for a small colony. It will, however, convert any independent freighters or other neutral ships parked at a pirate base into microscopic space dust.

In the niche role I deploy the DP for, the other area weapons are seriously not worth the research time. If I wanted area weapons for use against fleets though, I'd always pick the researchable ones, due to the DP's inability to drop a shockwave when the target dies on the initial hit.




Icemania -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/22/2014 4:29:53 PM)

That's pretty cool Unbroken. If I had a way to get the AI to do that in the AI Improvement Mod I'd be working on it right now! But what the AI would do is put the DP ship in their fleets and then promptly wipe themselves out.




Unbroken -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/22/2014 4:45:04 PM)

I've never properly tested the friendly-fire effects, but having liberally used DPs near my own ships, I haven't had a loss due to that happening though, but chances are I'd have to park ships at point-blank next to an enemy base, then hit it with the shockwave since it will not generate against a target that initially dies.

Also, it takes at least size 400 construction using 3 or 4 fusion reactors to properly use the DP, or to my understanding it won't fire. With lower-tier reactors, I think size 500 would be necessary, or you'd have a ship made of newspaper to be used in an assault role.

The DP is one of those weapons that I doubt the AI could ever use in the 'correct' manner as it currently exists. I'm not sure how to rectify that either. It certainly doesn't fit in well with the other, smaller-scale area weapons due to the big bang, unless the AI can be made to design a specialty ship around area weapons it obtains with specific tactics settings so it hopefully won't kill itself as well.




Unbroken -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/23/2014 2:11:51 PM)

I played around with the DP a bit more, and friendly fire does exist, but again, only if the area of effect is generated in the first place - the target must be capable of surviving the initial 2400 damage. So unless you're fighting lategame fleets, you can spam DP-equipped bases and ships with nigh-impunity once you obtain either fusion or quantum reactors.

About the only AI-safe use I can think of with the way everything current works is as a megaweapon installed on defense bases and LSPs. However, a clever player can easily exploit that by designing a very fast, tanky ship that will survive the direct hit, generating the area of effect which will cause the AI to bulldoze its own bases mindlessly.




Hikikomori -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/23/2014 8:32:02 PM)

Does anybody know the rationale behind missile and torpedo bombers?

They seem in the AI-Mod(which has a weapon mod incorporated iirc) as in Vanilla to be similar distinct from each other, with missiles ranges about 80% higher than that of torpedo bombers, while almost all other attributes are similar/identical. Apart from damage that is, which torpedos have roughly 2-3 times as much.

Experimenting with carriers, i found that torpedos are vastly superior, especially if you have just enough firepower to annihilate a ship in one bomber swoop. Missile bombers do not seem to utilize their range for keeping themselves out of harms way in respect to point defence. Even if i am mistaken about that, i have doubts if the amount of point defence the ai uses makes a difference warranting a 3 fold increase.

They also do not seem to compensate for their lackluster damage in other ways.

Am i missing something? [&:]
I would like to have both a role, but i do not recognize having a longer range being such an advantage.




lurchi -> RE: Weapons Balancing (8/23/2014 8:53:55 PM)

Single ships of doom with devastator pulse aside I never used area weapons since they damaged my own units more than the enemy. They seem to not do that anymore (by not firing when friendly ships are around) which still makes them sorta bad for fleet use. They are nice for ports and defense bases without fleets, though.

BTW, did anybody try placing them on mines? [:D]




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