Is the SPWAW comunity too older? (Full Version)

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Inuil -> Is the SPWAW comunity too older? (3/22/2001 4:01:00 AM)

Hi Steelers! I have read this morning the post about the age of our comunity, and a dude captured me. Our medium age is 36 years old, (I´m 36 years old)and I´m afraid that something doesn´t go well. Many of us began our hobby in AH board games during 70´s, 80´s, but this easy games and young fans generation (not too easyer in the last years) didn´t have replacement. The new tactical games are more and more complex and the great capabilities of new PC´s mark this direction clearly. I remember the last effort of AH in coordination with Smithsonian Institute to make easy games to atract new gamers during the 80´s. where we do go? what can we do? can we do some more to help Matrix and our hobby? Here in Spain I have sent many copies of the game to my friends and collaborators. I appreciate all good suggestion. :confused:



halstein -> (3/22/2001 4:21:00 AM)

The "Prefrences" screen, gives such opurtunity to vary the complexety of SPWaW, so it can fit most people. And when one combines this with the tutorials, I don't think it is impossible to get new people to start playing it. And if they have problems, there is a very good SPWaW-forum :D .



Grumble -> (3/22/2001 6:25:00 AM)

quote:

I remember the last effort of AH in coordination with Smithsonian Institute to make easy games to atract new gamers during the 80´s. where we do go? what can we do? can we do some more to help Matrix and our hobby? Here in Spain I have sent many copies of the game to my friends and collaborators
That's a fine start. Also, Matrix offering the game for free on their website, encourages folks to at least try it. FWIW, I remember reading many editorials in the AH "General" bewailing the greying of the gaming audience. I think the fact I read this some 20 years ago, says alot about the staying-power of the hobby-not necessarily about the hobby companies. Now, nstead of younger gamers cutting their teeth on Cardboard-and-Paper, they're doing it on PCs. They're out there, they just haven't made it over to "serious" wargames, yet. I suggest if anything, the plethora of military-type computer games on the market has removed some of the stigma attached to wargaming that was there when I started in the mid-70's (US perspective); this will encourage those with interest to move over. that, and a resurgence of interest in WW2 -which is by far the most popular era in wargaming, followed by Napoleonic Era. The demographics run something like this IIRC: Introduced to gaming as pre-teens or teens, stay with it until school, job and/or babes (overwhelming majority of wargamers are male) consumes time and available disposable cash. Quit, then after school/grad school/marriage, have the money to pick it up again or just quit. (Met alot of folks who used to game in school, then lost time and opponents to play.) This latter is usually around 30's or so-the demographic of the SPWAW audience.



Grimm -> (3/22/2001 6:53:00 AM)

There are still young people getting into gaming, just different forms than what we grew up on. The popular "intro" games are now the CCGs. Once they have played those for awhile, they seem to move onto minature games like 40K.



Wild Bill -> (3/22/2001 7:11:00 AM)

I have been around a loong, time, Inuil, much longer than that 36 year old gentleman. In fact, I consider myself one of the pioneers in the birth stages of the wargaming community, going back to the 60s with the redoubtable Avalon Hill. I find today that the wargaming community is bigger than ever. Now how much of that is among the younger folks around the world? I could not say for sure but I will say that the personal correspondence and inquiries I receive daily indicate that they are out there and in some numbers. This will probably continue to be true in the future. Those who love military history and gaming will always be around And I think our telling younger folks about the hobby and what if offers is one of the best ways to keep it alive. Matrix does need your support. We need for you to talk about what we are trying to do here. The best advertising has always been word of mouth. You folks are our spokespeople. We need you. The fun is just beginning! Wild Bill



Greg McCarty -> (3/22/2001 8:38:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I have been around a loong, time, Inuil, much longer than that 36 year old gentleman. In fact, I consider myself one of the pioneers in the birth stages of the wargaming community, going back to the 60s with the redoubtable Avalon Hill. I find today that the wargaming community is bigger than ever. Now how much of that is among the younger folks around the world? I could not say for sure but I will say that the personal correspondence and inquiries I receive daily indicate that they are out there and in some numbers. This will probably continue to be true in the future. Those who love military history and gaming will always be around And I think our telling younger folks about the hobby and what if offers is one of the best ways to keep it alive. Matrix does need your support. We need for you to talk about what we are trying to do here. The best advertising has always been word of mouth. You folks are our spokespeople. We need you. The fun is just beginning! Wild Bill
I quite agree. I have been engaged in this hobby for nearly 40 years, and I can honestly tell you that, particularly with the advent of the internet, the community involved in this activity is, if anything, growing stronger and more numerous. I can remember back in the 60's when the biggest competitive activity in wargaming was playing by mail. (not email) Those of us who did so were in high school then. We were considered a bit strange. We didnt give a damn what others thought. It was fun. Since then, the tools have grown stronger and more sophisticated. Dont worry about the young ones not being engaged in this hobby early on. It takes a certain level of maturity and a sense of history to appreciate doing this. Those whose passions take them in this direction will find their way here; particularly now that our hobby is on line, and placed before all the world to see. I see no reason to be concerned. It just gets better all the time.



Fabs -> (3/22/2001 11:34:00 PM)

Lack of education, social factors, increasing distance from events and a vast array of competing activities are factors in making our hobby unattractive to the very young. In schools in many Western Democracies the wars of the last century are no longer considered important within the history curriculum. Children (mostly boys) who are interested in warlike games and weapons are considered bordering on the socially inadequate, when this was considered totally normal when I was a kid. Science fiction and fantasy are considered by more people when looking to exercise the "tactical/strategic" part of their brains. The future seems to hold more appeal than the past, partly because you can make it up entirely if you want. There seems to be a small revival, although when I finally got to see "Enemy at the gate" last night here in London, the movie theatre was half empty. It gets fuller during the first week of any naff romantic comedy involving Meg Ryan.



Pack Rat -> (3/23/2001 9:22:00 AM)

A couple of cents worth. My generation (I'm 50) had/has a real problem with computers in general. It's a shame. I have more faith in the younger generations finding games like WAW than I do to get my generation to even give computers a chance to show them a brave new world. It hasn't been with out my trying, I hope it's only the part of the woods I live in. :)



Flashfyre -> (3/23/2001 10:49:00 AM)

I think the important point to be considered is that, unlike the "geriatric" :D crowd of gamers, who have some remembrance of Vietnam and the Cold War, most of the younger generation haven't had a significant war or conflict to heighten their awareness or interest. Who remembers the sudden increase in rockets, space toys, and the like, during the Apollo missions? Kids gravitate to the event of the moment. I remember exploring my grandparents' attic when I was a kid, and finding all these old toys my dad and his brother played with. They were all war-era toys; a bombing toy (dartboard on the floor, box that held bomb-shaped darts with a mirror you looked thru to drop the darts), tin soldiers, cap-firing tanks and arty pieces, etc. :eek: After all, what major military events have happened in the past 18-20 years? Desert Storm, which, you must admit, wasn't really that much of a war. And the UN peacekeeping missions in Kosovo are, in the main, bloodless. As a side note, I recently returned to college (after 18 years). My American History class is comprised of almost all freshmen (18-19 year olds). None of them have any idea what the Cold War was, or why Vietnam was so unpopular, or what a thrill it was to watch the Apollo missions launch from Kennedy. Most of them were only 8 years old when Desert Storm occurred! So is it surprising that this generation isn't interested in military wargames?



Inuil -> (3/23/2001 2:15:00 PM)

Thanks for your words will and Greg.(I need to heard your venerables oppinions ;) ) Probably this is the golden age of wargames, but I´m more agree with Fabs and Flashfire. Probably today the net and the PC make more easy to all to acces to warwames... but the question is if today the percentage of people interested in tactical games are the same like in the past years. Here in Spain, don´t is the same. In the 80´s you could see many teens playing in schools and universities, and many fan clubs were formed. Today the picture is very different. Probably is more easy to acces to tactical games, but in percentage the people play in it is less. It´s demostrated, than the warwamer is very loyal to his hobby (like all of us) but I think we must done some "tactical" acctions to increase our hobby. I´m in the last OOB´s developed team, and by this I have contacted with many people to help me in the great effort do a better and new version. Now, all of this persons are SPWAW fans. Why not use the tecnology to increase our hobby? It´s very easy, send e-mails to some potentialy interested groups, like militar, modelist, figure wargames, universities, etc... The great luck is that the game is "free". ¿why not? ¿It´s so difficult to the design team to do a publicitary post, and them, all of us sending it to some groups in our respectives countries? I think not. No one of the SPWAW devotes refused it, and our cost in money and time will be minimal. :) ¡¡¡ ASSAULT THE TRENCHS!!! Thanks for all. ( and sorry but my english not is fine :mad: )



Antonius -> (3/24/2001 4:36:00 PM)

By teaching my kids to play SPWAW I have found out that as long as you set C&C off, tell how to load & rally units and what some of the numbers (shots, suppression) at the bottom of the screen mean it's very easy for any newbie to try the game without the basic frustration of being unable to move/fire units. A few easy to win scens (like the tutorial) as training ground will soon reward the apprentice. In fact I think that spwaw is much like chess: easy to play, hard to master :)



jwarrenw13 -> (3/25/2001 1:49:00 AM)

I have to wonder if the age of the community is a real problem? Is an average age of 36, if that is what it is, something to worry about? Different demographics want different things. The interests and, frankly, the minds, or teens and early 20s are not the same as 30s or 40s, etc. Do games HAVE to appeal to the teen set to be successful? As the computer industry and computer gaming industry continue to grow, doesn't it make sense that significant markets will develop for more mature computer gamers? After all, consider clothes, or cars, or TV? There are significant markets here and in anything else for more mature adults. I think the market for computer games for more mature adults will continue to develop as computers become universal. So I think trying to market a game like SPWAW to kids may be a mistake. You have to change the game in a way that makes it unpalatable to its original market. After all, Chevy isn't trying to market Suburban to fuzz-faced teenagers, is it?



Rhodan -> (3/25/2001 6:21:00 AM)

I got three brats, ages 9, 12 and 15, all boys. The youngest one is too busy racing outside on his scooter he got for christmas but the older two..man..ever since that dark day they opened my CDROM storage box and saw these three shiney CD's called Steel Panthers I, II and III they have been at it , against the AI, against each other and against their dad ( who still thinks it is totally unfair of his 13 yr old to bombard the crud out of his poroud russian army). These guys still do strategy/tactical oriented games, however most of them are, as pointed out above, not orientated on (recent) history wargames. Instead they have grown up with games like Command & Conquer, Starcraft and the list goes on. Minfd you, for those of you who don't know, those games demand strategic and tactical decisions in real time. Are they realistic? No, ofcourse not, they are sci-fi based programs, however, the boys grew tired with them after playing them for I don't know how long and all of the sudden the step from C&C to Panzer general just occured..just like that and next thing I know they have discovered SPWaW on dad's puter and are furiously discussing whterh they should purchase a hurricane or a blendheim, with some very sound arguments mind you. So I think that eventually that generation will grow into the swing of things if they really want to, although the *commercial* ( Matrix being an exception so far) industry will have to keep one thing in mind...the days that just the game mechanics were all important are definitely over. Audio and especially the visuals are seriously taken into consideration. My boys went totally bezerk over Panzer General Scorched Earth ( Isometric 3d graphics ) and played it from the time they got up till the poitn I had to chase them into bed. If Matrix goes commercial with it's product I hope they will remember that first impression DO count these days...well for their generation it does anyway. My two cents worth :) Rho



DerSoldat -> (3/25/2001 6:50:00 AM)

Im 28 years old and I started my wargaming career playing Ambush and Squad Leader/ASL on the boards.I have an extensive collection now collected over the years of SPI and other classics.One of my favorites the SNIPER! series that TSR improved on.Nope this kid started out right on the classics before the computer breed.Nothing will ever compare to the old boards and counters and imagining the sound effects in your heads and thinking of yourself as that little counter on the board.Anyone out there still pull out there beloved AH,SPI,Westend,Yaquinto,or victory games classicss?Of course I play SPWAW and others as well.



KG Erwin -> (3/25/2001 7:13:00 AM)

I don't think we have too much to worry about. The renaissance in wargaming has been in large part due to a new generation of gamers showing interest in the genre. The average age of 36 reflects the first year of the post baby-boom generation, right? I suppose that makes us boomers ( between ages 37-55) somewhat of the "old breed" of wargamers, the mapboard-cardboard counter generation. In SPWaW, the so-called "Generation X"ers rule. Doesn't that make you old farts feel better now? :eek:



Greg McCarty -> (3/26/2001 2:14:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by KG Erwin: [... Doesn't that make you old farts feel better now? :eek:[/B]
:D Yes --and every time I do, I feel much better.



jwarrenw13 -> (3/26/2001 2:26:00 AM)

I think KG Erwin makes a good point about the age breakdown. To take if further, just as the Boomers changed the economy as they aged (Dockers, golf, minivans and SUVs, etc), so the Xers, or whatever you want to call them, will change the economy as they mature (No disrespect intended.) They will be the first generation of post-boardgame gamers to reach middle age, and I think they will begin to seek computer games for thinking people in greater numbers. So I think what we are seeing now is not the end of wargaming as we know it (Although for us boardgaming Boomers, it is.) as much as it is the beginning of a new era of computer wargames for mature adults. After all, do you think the kids are going to be listening to Rap and wearing sagging pants when they're 40? (Which leads me to an unrelated question. Will Rap be the Disco music of the 21st Century, a musical tradition that will be shunned by its former fans?)



BruceAZ -> (3/27/2001 8:41:00 AM)

Hello to all us "Old Timers"... Please remember this: Inside every older person is a younger person asking "What the hell happened?" :D



Inuil -> (3/29/2001 7:30:00 AM)

Yes 5threcon... it´s true too. I´m agree with you. ;) But the new question is, if we can do anything more to expand our hobby? :rolleyes:



Inuil -> (3/29/2001 11:58:00 PM)

Nobody more have oppinions? Suggestions please.



Billy Yank -> (3/30/2001 5:34:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by JW: After all, do you think the kids are going to be listening to Rap and wearing sagging pants when they're 40? (Which leads me to an unrelated question. Will Rap be the Disco music of the 21st Century, a musical tradition that will be shunned by its former fans?)
Hey, I resemble that remark. I'm 35 and I still listen to rap. Of course, when you're younger and you want a quick, cheap thrill, you play Risk and Wolfenstien, listen to Ice-T and Tone-Loc and wear baggy pants hanging off your hips. When you get older and more settled and cerebral, you play SPW@W and Alpha Centauri, listen to Diggable Planets and Arrested Development and those same pants start fitting pretty snugly.



BruceAZ -> (3/30/2001 7:43:00 AM)

Hello Billy Yank: I really get a kick out of your quote. I am a real fan of J.R.R. Tolkien and cannot wait for his movie to debut. :eek:



Inuil -> (3/30/2001 7:55:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by 5thRecon: Hello Billy Yank: I really get a kick out of your quote. I am a real fan of J.R.R. Tolkien and cannot wait for his movie to debut. :eek:
Yes, I´m a great fan of Tolkien too. I have heard than movie is very nice and good making. I´m awaithing like you the debut. :rolleyes:



Inuil -> (3/30/2001 7:57:00 AM)

But... are the fans of Tolkien too older? ;) HAHAHAHAHAHA.



Billy Yank -> (4/4/2001 4:51:00 AM)

Thanks, 5th. I can't wait either, but I have to see Pearl Harbor first. :D



Svar -> (4/4/2001 5:32:00 AM)

I was born during WW II and cut my teeth on war movies during the 50's so when AH brought out Tactics II I jumped on it and a lot more since then. It was the movies that got me interested and if there were more good war movies being made there would be more interest from the younger generation. I bought my first computer in 1984 just to play war games and have been at it ever since. Computer war games solves the problem of finding human oppenents. Svar



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