I need space-welfare... (Full Version)

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Airpower -> I need space-welfare... (7/16/2014 10:13:34 PM)

I'm getting into trying harder difficulty levels, and I find that as I enter mid-mid game, my state income level dips lower and lower until I eventually go broke. I know I am doing something really wrong, but I can't figure out what. My private sector is always flush with a large income and large cash reserves. I can't seem to make that work for me though. Can someone help me? Here's what I usually do (I don't use any automation btw):

1) Expand early and hard, starting with high quality planets that are close, and expanding outwards.
2) Get at least 1 source of every strategic resource and 1 source of 10 luxury resources - not much more though.
3) Build 3-4 infantry per planet to defend from cheese invasions and pirate raids.
4) Rush for the research wonders, and build them at my homeworld (goodbye 60,000 credits/year)
5) Maintain 1-3 fleets comprised of 15-20 max-size ships. I keep them regularly retrofitted to max tech levels.
6) Leave colonies set to 0% tax until they generate 40-50k GDP, then I tax at 20-30 percent.
7) Build a moderately strong defensive base with rec/med facilities at each colony.
8) When I can build Inf/Arm/SF troops, I build 6000 size worth of mixed troops as an enemy homeworld assault force.
9) In mid-game when I get LR sensors, I make "eyeball" bases (expendable monitoring stations) to cover my territory

I play the tech toads so I usually outmatch my enemies in firepower. I also play very offensively and try to smack down weak neighbors and cap their homeworlds as soon as possible.

Without fail though, by the time I hit mid-mid game, even if I have an enemy homeworld, I am 200k in the red and I lose interest in the playthrough.

Guidance appreciated!



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/16/2014 10:16:20 PM)

Oh, forgot to mention, after getting the High-Tech research wonder, I pivot to get the first Trade Guild wonder, which I build at my Homeworld. The top-tier trade guild wonder is usually not long after. Doesn't seem to help though.



Tcby -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/16/2014 10:20:30 PM)

[&:]
Hard to say... Can you upload a save?



mensrea -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/16/2014 10:55:46 PM)

Update the designs of your civilian ships and the private sector will pay you to build/retrofit them. Do that a couple times and pretty soon all that private sector cash will be in your pocket.



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/16/2014 11:43:14 PM)

TCBY: Let me whip up another playthrough and I'll upload it.

Mensrea: Yeah I do that to keep my reserves up, but it seriously feels like cheating. Having to resort to that trick ruins the fun of the game for me. If I have to do it, I feel like I've already lost. Ideally I can figure out why I'm not making money, or why I'm spending so much.



Tcby -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 12:12:47 AM)

^I agree. I find it more enjoyable to improve my play rather than use exploits as a crutch.



Retreat1970 -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 12:48:12 AM)

IDK for sure. I set my HW at 14% tax until max then tax up until +16 happiness. That nets all I need for along time. Unfortunately Quameno at 14% growth hurts. Bad. Your Empire summary screen should tell you all you need to know as far as expenses go.



DeadlyShoe -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 2:32:19 AM)

Well your first mistake is probably expanding early and hard. Out of control colony costs sank more than of my empires.

Don't get too impressed with AI colony spam, because every colony costs 3k income to support until it's on its feet. Even then it will cost -1k until it starts getting tax revenue. Plus any expenses incurred by colonizing or defending said planet.

really though the best thing to do is to keep an eye on the budget summary and see where your money is going. Note: Colony support costs will subtract from your income rather than showing up as an expense.

quote:

4) Rush for the research wonders, and build them at my homeworld (goodbye 60,000 credits/year)

Try not to do this. Spread your wonders out if possible, and don't build a wonder you can't afford just because.



mensrea -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 2:52:03 AM)

My mistake, I confused welfare with near cheating, heh. Just identify what is costing you the most money and figure out how you can cut down on it. It is legit to me to give private sector bases long range sensors, usually gas mines. You probably don't need 3-4 infantry for every planet, just the planets on the periphery or planets that are not defended by nearby fleets. I know in vanilla I used to do about the same with infantry but the exorbitant costs add up fast and would often screw my economy.

Also, this is my opinion naturally, but fleets are better than defenses on bases. They are not stuck in one place so you can assign them to sector defense or even system defense (or offense even).

You can also tax the hell out of people sometimes but you may not do it due to personal preference. Just keep upping the taxes until they are no longer happy so you know where to draw the line.

Finally, get command center, commerce and troop logistic techs. Mining techs seem to help too. I also assume that your putting energy collectors on most things to prevent them from using fuel unnecessarily. I even put them on defense fleets because they tend to just hang out in orbit or something.

For the record I should note that the AI economies are ridiculously buffed in harder difficulties, so don't try to use their GDP's or income as a benchmark or you will always feel inadequate.



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:14:25 AM)

Here's a shot of my empire summary screen. Sorry but I don't know how to attach my savegame file... :(

Shoe, I have a question - my understanding is that the private sector pays for newly-created colonies. I have found that even if I spam colony ships and set up shop on every available piece of land, I still have plenty of income in my private sector. And colony spam sets me up well for the late game, when my tax base becomes huge. Am I going at this the wrong way though?

[image]http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg630/mr_fission/Froggy3_zps186ca4e3.gif[/image]



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:20:26 AM)

This is a shot of my Empire screen on 25 December (so all resort and space port income is shown).



johanwanderer -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:26:37 AM)

Looking at your summary, a few things come to mind:
  1. You income is very poor for the number of colonies. Open the colony screen and sort be revenue. Your home world should be at the top, probably providing > 80% of all the income. The rest are likely to contribute very little due to high corruption. Solution? Research regional capitals and place them in strategic systems. That will reduce corruptions and enhance revenues.
  2. Your troop maintenance is high (compared to fleet / base). See if you can find better / cheaper troops (Mortalen, Keskudon, etc.) Assimilate them and build troops exclusively on those planets, then transport them elsewhere. Otherwise build robotic troop if need be. That may cut your troop maintenance by probably 50% if not 75%.
  3. Consider build some resort bases.
  4. Consider switching government (a high research government is no help if you can't foot the bills).
  5. Last resort, consider raising taxes.

Hope that helps!



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:39:54 AM)

Ooh! Robot troops! That's really smart - I will do that.

Here's a screenie of my colony list, sorted by revenue. Is my main colony low in population? Maybe the high tax rate has caused everyone to emigrate away, reducing my State tax base? This could be compounded by the fact that I colonize every available rock, giving them more places to go to. Hmm.... possible?

[image]http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg630/mr_fission/Colonies_zps85db7fd7.gif[/image]



aZmoDen -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:44:42 AM)

To be honest, your not taxing your planets enough.
You should really have about 40-50% of your private colonys income as tax. That coupled with your spaceport and resort base income should be enough.
It also looks like your troop maintanece is abit large, i would only station 1-2 troops on a planet with a defence station in orbit.
What it seems like is your double fortifying (and doubling necessary expenses) either have enough troops to defend from pirate raids OR Have space station above.
Another idea is instead of spreading immobile bases everywhere, put that money into fleets, have 5-7 ships defending a system with a planet in it, put space stations with min shields and rec/med centers above each planet but all the armour weapons and extra shields should go on ships, remember pirates rarely raid systems with fleets in them.
You are also double dipping on research. Your government is research focused without income and maintenance bonuses, yet you also rush expensive research wonders. Add to that a low tax rate, with expensively defended planets and your are in for a lean time.

SO!
-tax your home colony 50%.
-put defence fleets of 5-7 max level ships guarding systems with planets (i would add an extra ship per target-able planet/mining station per system).
-have space stations above your planets with rec/med centers but not overly massive, keep those armour plates and weapons for your fleets.
-reduce troop levels abit, 1-2 troops are enough on systems that dont get raided (because you have fleets)
-If rushing research wonders, change government to something that has maintenance bonus and/or income bonus.
-Consider rushing trade bazar / market place, putting one or both of these on your homeworld plus a 50% tax rate, will give you loads of income.

If theres anything else i missed im sure someone will point it out, good luck!



johanwanderer -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:44:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Airpower

Ooh! Robot troops! That's really smart - I will do that.

Here's a screenie of my colony list, sorted by revenue. Is my main colony low in population? Maybe the high tax rate has caused everyone to emigrate away, reducing my State tax base? This could be compounded by the fact that I colonize every available rock, giving them more places to go to. Hmm.... possible?



Look at the 2nd colony in the list. If you stick a regional capital in there, you would probably end up with 500K revebue from it (instead of the current 135K). That's a big difference.

And yes, wait for some of the colonies to develop before expand more.

Last but not least, kill those pirate bases :)

Edit: Yes, your main colony is WAY low on population. Holy cow.



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:51:39 AM)

Okay, here's a shot of the planet's info before and after a regional capital is built there. I guess that's 229k worth of GDP out of thin air. Good suggestion. :)

Before regional capital:

[image]http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg630/mr_fission/Varunat_zps62e39ec8.gif[/image]

After regional capital:

[image]http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg630/mr_fission/Varunat2_zps96e2a05f.gif[/image]



DeadlyShoe -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:52:07 AM)

You have WAY too many troops.

Once you finish with any regional capital stuff, you'll want to scrap at least one of your wonders (trade guild?) and rebuild it at Varunat.



Tcby -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:53:38 AM)

6 billion is very low at that stage of the game. You should also tax your other colonies less (preferably at zero) for longer. Their growth rate will be far too slow at this level of taxation, and the revenue is small. You could also build more resorts



Retreat1970 -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:55:50 AM)

Johan is correct. Your tax income is poor. Is your HW max pop? By this time it should be. Tax your max pop HW until it's just happy (+16). 0 Tax on colonies until max pop then max tax.

Too many troops. Are you at war? Then maybe you need them. Get rid of half. Maybe more.

Technocracy is great, but if you can't build anything what good is tech? Money rules this game (for me).

You're already +90% tech (plus more with characters), do you really need the wonders for research boost? That's some maint savings.

Just some ideas.

quote:

6 billion is very low at that stage of the game


This ^. A Homeworld at 1/4 pop is a disaster.



johanwanderer -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 4:11:47 AM)

I know we're comparing apples and oranges here, but attached is my list of colonies. Check out the values compared to yours. I don't know if this is the right thing to do or not, but I try to spread the wonders around my top colonies, making them better. I also have 5 infantry + 1 planetary defense at each colony, but Keskudon troops are cheap. I wouldn't do that if they were more expensive.

Also notice that my capitals (the top 4 colonies) provided some 75% of the empire's income. The other 80 are there just to make things lively :)



[image]local://upfiles/49220/396090F07CE04E88B1925C5259CB4C79.jpg[/image]



johanwanderer -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 4:15:28 AM)

And attached is my empire summary (insert evil smiley here). Notice that my troop maintenance is only about 1/4 of my ship and bases. I try to keep it around that ratio if I can.

[image]local://upfiles/49220/FCA407FBC2AC459AA6F639CA871FB2E3.jpg[/image]



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 4:37:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970
A Homeworld at 1/4 pop is a disaster.


Agreed. I'm glad you guys are giving me this feedback. I think my wimpy homeworld is the biggest problem in this particular playthrough. I'll play a game tomorrow and try to focus on cultivating a high-pop homeworld.



Airpower -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 4:44:13 AM)

Johan, that's a lot of ships. Wow!

I think that if I use Robotic troops as planetary garrisons, and also cut down the number of planets I have, I will come close to approaching your 4:1 ratio of ship:troop costs. And reducing colonization may also help with my emigration problem with my homeworld.

After doing the math, I notice you have a space port at 100% of your colonies. I only have 2 spaceports in this game. One at my homeworld, and one at the captured enemy homeworld (Varunat, in my screenshots). Could I be gimping my spaceport income by doing this?



johanwanderer -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 5:49:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Airpower

Johan, that's a lot of ships. Wow!


Thank you! My ships are small though (Escorts-Frigates-Destroyers) are only ~400 in size. Capital Ships and Carriers are maxed out, though.

quote:


After doing the math, I notice you have a space port at 100% of your colonies. I only have 2 spaceports in this game. One at my homeworld, and one at the captured enemy homeworld (Varunat, in my screenshots). Could I be gimping my spaceport income by doing this?

I highly doubt it. I only do that because it feels like it's the "right" thing to do (role-playing wise). Spaceports are a big drain on resources and maintenance, with questionable strategic importance in far-flung colonies. I use them to control pirates more than anything else. They can, however, add to your colony's happiness, which allows you to tax them more (even though corruption will negate most of it.)

The way I look at it, a spaceport costs me about 6K to maintain. If the colony's tax income is not that much, then it's not worth building. However, I try to put at least one spaceport in each system. After all, why settle a system if you don't plan to build infrastucture there? In that game, I have plenty of income to handle the spaceports though, so I build them everywhere.

I believe the private sector is somewhat tied to spaceports as well. It will try to maintain X number of freighters per size of spaceport, and all those suffling of resources may generate extra cash for the economy.

Anyway, it sounds like you're well on your way of solving the problem. Maybe now you can try a few different things and let us know how that work out. For example, it would be interesting to copy your current game save, and continue in two different paths (one with just the 2 spaceports, one with as many as you can afford) and see how the economy compares after a few years.

Cheers!



DeadlyShoe -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 6:31:39 AM)

spaceports at a good colony are always desirable EXCEPT that the AI shuffles resources around to each spaceport. What this means is that any individual spaceport may not end up with the resources to construct or upgrade a significant number of ships.

this isnt as much a problem if you are on full automatic ship production as the AI will issue constant low level production orders. However its a problem for players since in my experience we tend to place fewer but much larger production orders which will choke.



ParagonExile -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 1:31:02 PM)

1. Do not tax your planets until you hit max population, or you'll bring an axe to the growth. Your home planet is woefully inadequate in that regard.

2. Build fewer troops where you have heavy space defenses.

3. Do not build so many spaceports; the most you should ever place is one per system, with the remaining planets given a smaller and cheaper starbase. This will make your civilization allocate resources more efficiently

4. Get more free trade agreements going with your neighbors.

5. Build more resort bases.

That's what I can offer. I can usually pull off 1 million credits per tick by mid game.



stormbringer3 -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:28:54 PM)

I'm also constantly having money problems. I know that building resort bases will help and I have all these potential locations but can't figure out how to build one.
Thanks for any help.



Sirian -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 3:48:23 PM)

Either select the planet / black hole / whatever and use one of the little icons below the image in the lower left corner -
Or use a constructor. Select the constructor and rightlick on the location. In the menu there will be a "build resort base".
Of course, you need a resort base design also.



stormbringer3 -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/17/2014 8:34:47 PM)

Thanks Sirian.
You helped me solve the problem. I put off researching Entertainment Systems so the option to build Resort Base never showed.



Korashy -> RE: I need space-welfare... (7/22/2014 5:01:35 AM)

For the large amount of colonies you have you have a ridiculously low amount of mining and gas mining station. AFAIK more of those means more private ships being build, meaning more money for you + more trade and GDP to tax. How you are not running out of resources everywhere is a mystery to me.

I generally also never tax my planets until they reach max population and then crank it up to 45% ish. You should also build some more resorts, and tech to increase your economy. People have already mentioned regional capitals.

Your capital planet only has 6B population, and pretty much all of your other population numbers are low. In my current game I had half your entire population on my homeplanet by the time I got colony tech (300k cashflow by itself) and now I have 3 maxed out planets with over 55B on them combined + a bunch of smaller colonies around 10B to 3B. One developed colony can be worth a lot more than 10 non developed. I generally make 3-4 new colonies for every max level planet at the beginning and later on 2-3 new colonies for every max level planet, depending on the situation and the state of my private sector.




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