Pirates Exploit (Full Version)

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PR -> Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:04:37 AM)

Hi guys,

Got this game a couple of weeks ago and can’t believe I haven’t heard of this gem earlier.

Anyway, question on pirates. I am not sure if I am doing something wrong but the way the protection agreements currently work does not make any sense to me.

The current mechanics allows you to ask for protection at any moment and pirates in 100% of the cases accept it. What’s worse is you can cancel it the moment they leave your systems, which they always do. Should they appear again, you ask for protection, they accept and leave and you cancel it a second later.

This seems to work irrespective of your current relationship with them. They can be ‘furious’ with you but will still accept your offer which, again, you cancel the second they leave your system.

Why put all those defenses up when it costs almost nothing to do the above?

This works on hardest pirate settings. I quit my current game as it was getting too easy. I thought that at some point pirates would say “NO” to my protection request and go on a rampage across my systems. They didn’t…

So my question is – besides trying to come up with a house rule, is there a setting in game that can be changed to either:

- Make pirates refuse protection request at least occasionally OR
- Make pirates stay in your system to enforce those agreements?

Thanks,
PR



Seraph86 -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:15:58 AM)

hmm, i thought this was fixed / changed 1-2 patches ago? if not there should be a period after a protection agreement is canceled before a new one can be created. also if the player cancels the agrement, the pirate should add some money the next time it offers or the player demands protection.

in general, the pirates will ask more money if you canceled it before and you will get some negative points in terms of your relation with them. this could mean that they will eventually refuse such agreements. but again, there are several factors which play a role like how badly the pirate needs money and so on.



Nanaki -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:20:18 AM)

Pirate diplomacy needs an overhaul, its pretty much in a nonexistant state at the moment. There should be:

Truce - Can be made between empires and pirates, and pirates and other pirates, no protection money is paid, but they will generally be stuck to so long as relations remain favorable. Improves relations between both sides. Cancelling gives a relations hit.
Protection Agreement - Can only be made between pirates and empires. Functions exactly the same as it does now.
Trade Sanctions - When an empire embargos a pirate, they will detect and destroy incoming smugglers of that pirate faction, even if they are delivering goods. When a pirate embargos an empire, they will refuse to smuggle resources to that faction or accept smuggling missions from that faction. Pirates can also sanction other pirates, but I am not sure pirates trade with other pirates so it may not do much.

This is just bare minimum, not including anything like alliances.



vmxa_slith -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:39:53 AM)

The pirates will accept your protection money and turn right around and break the deal. So it seems to me that idea that we can break the deal is tit for tat. I do agree it needs work.



savingthegalaxy -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:52:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
Pirate diplomacy needs an overhaul, its pretty much in a nonexistant state at the moment.


Very much agree. Diplomacy is the one area that is hurting the potential for pirates to be really interesting and fun in this game.

If we never get an official patch on this is much possible with community mods?



Vardis -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:54:45 AM)

Pirates will hold to a protection agreement for six months without formally cancelling, however you may get ships continuing to raid independent colonies you invade and take over, which will auto-cancel the protection agreement as soon as they land on the planet. I don't know if that's working as intended, or is a bug related to orders not being updated when a colony changes. I sort of suspect the latter, since I've seen pirate constructors continue to attempt to retrofit at a planet of theirs that I'd taken over.

I think when you agree to the protection payments, the first payment is immediately made. What might make this less abusable is if not only did the amount of the payments continue to increase as the pirates hate you, but if you are prone to cancelling your agreement, they start demanding large up-front payments. Also, if when you cancel an agreement with them, they instantly re-evaluate ship orders, so if they had just left your system, they may decide to turn around and attack it again.



PR -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 12:59:54 AM)

So do you guys have some sort of a house rule e.g. if you enter into a protection agreement then you don't break it for, say, 12 game months?

At the moment pirates are not a threat at all. They appear on your borders or you are about to loose a battle to them - you quickly ask for protection, they accept and disappear, you cancel it one second later.

Also, when I was first heard about this feature, i thought 'cool, these guys will stick around to protect me from other pirates and empires'. But no, they left...so in a way I am totally justified it breaking the agreement but it feels like a total exploit.



Nanaki -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 1:49:56 AM)

Nope. Modding this in is not possible. Hopefully the devs are kind enough to provide us with a bit extra content.



Unforeseen -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 2:06:07 PM)

I try not to take advantage of exploits.

(As opposed to what I did in MOO3 which was move my entire fleet to a blackhole and then jump directly to an enemies home planet)



Keston -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 3:51:20 PM)

The truce concept was considered and obviously accepted among pirates and rejected with empires. Maybe as being exploitable by players - maybe since it is inconsistent with what the pirate business is all about and their role in the game. Not to mention pirate credibility and reputation if intimidated into a profitless truce by planet-dwellers. It is not time but getting money (whether called gifts, protection fees, or taxes) that maintains good relations with organizations based on using power to generate cash.

Embargo does not work since the smugglers are not Pirate-flagged, and the least avenue of corruption makes it easy to smuggle. And a pirate embargo on smuggling for an empire - how would REFUSING to make money keep the captains and crews loyal?

But the good point is there could be more diplomacy involving pirates. Truce already goes a very long way. It means non-violent competition between rival businesses. Smuggling does not require a large fleet, but forming a syndicate for a mission or raid (or on a longer term basis) could make sense and make pirates more dangerous at times.

Rival pirates might also agree to territorial boundaries - this sector/empire belongs to me, that to you - but it only matters between the parties.

They might also sell mining bases and captured ships...




Nanaki -> RE: Pirates Exploit (7/23/2014 5:05:52 PM)

Not every pirate organization is entirely based on violence, in fact, the 'Smuggler' and 'Mercenary' pirate types would profit far more from peaceful cooperation with planet-dwellers, after all, the former is built around smuggling resources to those planetdwellers and the latter is built around providing attack/defense services to them.

Embargo would work in two ways. Empires embargoing pirates will use scanner equipment to detect and shoot smuggling freighters belonging to those pirates, even if those pirates are delivering resources to them (one of the changes made in 1.9.5.5 is that empires will not attack pirate smugglers delivering resources to them). Pirates embargoing empires will refuse to provide resources to that empire, which would be logical if that empire was taking very aggressive action against ships and stations of that pirate faction, captains and crew will not be against taking action against the people killing them.



exin -> RE: Pirates Exploit (6/29/2015 6:47:36 AM)

I think Nanaki is right. There should be a bit more peaceful relationship options for Empires and Smugglers/Mercenaries. As an Empire, I would really like to have a sort of Trade Agreenment with Smugglers and a NAP. It would benefit me a lot more and it would be less tedious than simply placing order after order for resources.



Aeson -> RE: Pirates Exploit (6/29/2015 11:41:04 AM)

quote:

As an Empire, I would really like to have a sort of Trade Agreenment with Smugglers and a NAP. It would benefit me a lot more and it would be less tedious than simply placing order after order for resources.

Yes, giving the Smugglers (and possibly other pirate types) an endgame goal of becoming some sort of corporate trade empire with trade licenses with all the (major) empires and the muscle to force minor players out of the game or at least to play nice when the trade ships stop by would have been nice, either instead of or in addition to the current endgame goal of becoming a normal(ish) empire. The time to ask for that for Distant Worlds is long past, though. Maybe a Distant Worlds II or something along those lines, but not in this game.



lucos -> RE: Pirates Exploit (6/29/2015 10:17:35 PM)

Hi!
Each time I cancel a treaty with pirates, the next treaty get more expensive. As Vardis said, first payment is always made when starting the contract. If you don't have enough money to pay it, they refuse the treaty.
I also had the case of pirates staying around after signing the contract, but I suppose that it depends on a lot of other parameter. I remember someone saying that the pirates were staying around to enforce the treaty when playing with the AI improvement mod.

For me, I prefer to enter agreement with pirates before they attack. The price is very cheap compare to when they attack and they almost never cancel it. This way, I can start to expand very quickly while other empires are still struggling with the pirates. I only start to cancel it mid-game, when I can build enough military to protect all my colonies.



Lucian -> RE: Pirates Exploit (6/30/2015 9:03:06 AM)

Also, pirates who are angry at you will tend to do sabotage spy missions against your asset's and they are very good at it. Last time I tried the OP's trick, I ended up having my homeworld spaceport (my only one) AND my energy research station(with scientist on board) both completely destroyed by sabotage. To a new, pre-warp empire that's not even slightly amusing.

So although it is quite possible to play the make/break protection game, I'm not sure its worth having infuriated pirates constantly sabotaging your critical structures at such a delicate point in your development.



accolade -> RE: Pirates Exploit (6/30/2015 9:34:46 PM)

quote:

Hi!
Each time I cancel a treaty with pirates, the next treaty get more expensive. As Vardis said, first payment is always made when starting the contract. If you don't have enough money to pay it, they refuse the treaty.
I also had the case of pirates staying around after signing the contract, but I suppose that it depends on a lot of other parameter. I remember someone saying that the pirates were staying around to enforce the treaty when playing with the AI improvement mod.


Yeah that was me. I'm playing on Extreme, Unstable, Pirate "Strong" & no tech trading w/ AI Improvement 1.04. Epic game so far.

Here you can see my current overlords sticking around. If I don't reinstate the protection agreement the second it lapses.. They will destroy my spaceports.

Forum says I'm not allowed to link or post images until my 10th post but the pics are here:


i.imgur . c om/kWjWhkt.png

i.imgur . c om/PFb5gly.png

i.imgur . c om/qSCDzaE.png

After having to recapture two systems and 1 planet (in my home system) from the Ketarovs then the Teekans I was able to beat back the original pirate menace with my new fleet and mercenary missions. Unfortunately one of the mercenary missions brought in these guys and so far they are here to stay. I tried fighting them but didn't look at their strength first so I have to pay the piper! I'm still trying to figure out how to tackle a 1.6mil firepower fleet but first I'm planning a simultaneous double planet invasion on the Teekans. Sneaky rats.



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