Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (Full Version)

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Gregorovitch55 -> Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 1:58:24 PM)

I've been experimenting with normal starts for a couple of games after cutting my teeth on the pre-warp start. I have also hopped up the difficulty to very hard/unstable although I have left the pirates on normal for now. Main reason is that I've been trying to play the Securans and I've been soundly thrashed a couple of times on the harder difficulty so I wanted to figure out why and run new games faster by cutting out the pre-warp play which seems about the same each time.

The main problem seems to be losing the colony rush race badly. In each of these games I have struggled to get colony ships out whereas my nieghbours seem to do so easily, so by the time I've managed to get say three colonies up they have 6,8 or even 10 or more. Even when bee-lining the bakkarus shipyard wonder and starting to pre-build colony ships as soon as I have four contruction ships done in my latest game I've lost out badly and been cramped for space and resources by the much faster colonisation rate of the my immediate neighbour who ought to be a natural ally, but I'll probably have to go to war with over resources which is far from ideal as Securans. I'm at a loss as to what more i could do to speed colony ship production up on a normal start.

It seems to me that a pre-warp start affords the player a lot more opportunity to get the colony research done and start building colony ships before everybody's proper warp drives come on line, not to mention a host of other tricks to accelerate development, particularly colonisation, early game.

Conversely I am finding the pirate factions are **** cats compared to the pre-warp start, massively weaker. I wondered if this is because they start in exactly the same state for both pre-warp and normal starts therefore in pre-warp they always seem so much stronger when you eventually get warp drives and run into them.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 2:01:33 PM)

Lol, did a bot censor object to ****cats? Come on.......



Cauldyth -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 2:56:36 PM)

Guess the censoring script doesn't check to see if it's paired with "cats" [:D]



Icemania -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 3:04:39 PM)

You may want to consider invading a few independents, particularly if they put key resources and potential colonies in your space.



feelotraveller -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 3:17:58 PM)

I'm not quite sure if you are asking for help or wanting to have a bit of a discussion about different starts? So I'll offer some advice and a bit of background. Feel free to tell me I've got it all wrong. [:D]

My early colonisation rush, particularly in pre-warp games but also in normal starts takes place with troop ships. Hey you independents you've just been volunteered to become part of the great 'whatever' empire. Normal starts need to take more notice of the reputation hits since you can go quicker (if you care about that kind of thing) and either pick and choose or find a nearby pirate or two to wipe out. Colony ships are sent to choice targeted unoccupied worlds somewhat later and a major consideration is 'claiming' new territory (that is, getting your empire influence to cover other worlds you will occupy later in the game). Unless, or until, I'm swimming in colony ships they are forbidden from even looking at an independent...

I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the Securans in particular might be giving you problems. Yes they lack science bonuses (both racial and government) but their growth rate should help, at least early on, to counter this. You are allowing them to (over)populate and not taxing them extra because they are so happy, aren't you?

Both the pre-warp starts and the relatively stronger pirates are newish additions. They came from things players were wanting. (Someone [sm=00000117.gif] back in Legends even went so far as to produce a couple of 'clean sheet' maps for players demanding such a thing, with somewhat mixed results.) Stronger pirates were already appearing - the Legend of Legends - but a section of players wanted them to have even more teeth. Unfortunately the AI is not (yet?) well tuned to dealing with these circumstances.

If you want to give them a bit more of a chance try instituting some house rules. For normal games my two big rules have always been no tech trading (which now has its own checkbox, yay!) and no conquering AI homeworlds (exception for endgame if racial victory conditions necessitate it). Maybe for prewarp not abusing pirate protection deals (not breaking them at will but only when they are up for renewal?) and insisting on leaving taxes on auto at least until you have added a colony or two to your empire are good candidates? I tend to give the AI one or two homeworld quality steps advantage but maybe that's because I want to feel like I am helping them rather than penalising myself. [;)] For normal starts giving the AI starting tech level advantages and empire sizes can generate interesting games but it really depends on finding a setup you like playing to/against.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 4:58:46 PM)

Well, I never seemed to have much problem keeping up with colony numbers on a pre-warp start. Now the other empires are starting far more colonies than me faster and I don't understand why.

First very hard game I went pre-warp and still got tied up with problems expanding and ran out of money so got trounced by Gizurians 'cos I had 1/3 their military strength and no money to increase fleets.

Second attempt I used a varied cluster map on normal start and did get two lost colonies and invaded to other independents which helped, but unfortunately I turned out to be sharing my cluster with one Gizurean empire and one Boskaran empire who both declared war on me at the same time and outgunned more than 4:1, well, curtains. This one was just unlucky i guess.

This game I have found only one independent to colonise. I share my cluster with the Zenox (in nice form) and although they are possible ally material in thiws game they have expanded so fast that they have put several of my mining stations in their territory already through their fast colonisation and are obviously angry about it. They have made six colonies so far to my three.

It just seems building colony ships is glacially slow, but the AI empires seem to build them much faster.




feelotraveller -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 5:43:45 PM)

What definitely effects colony ship production speed it is your colony yard construction speed, which in turn relies only on population as its determinant. 600 is the max speed and I think you hit this speed at 10000m population. Up to this point more population equals quicker colony ship construction. You could also try minimising the number of components on your colonyships since with less they will build faster.

Other than that the only factors I can think of are when you get the tech for the designs and when you start construction. Personally I generally only use 2 constructors early game, and if I was getting squeezed in the colony race I would start a colony ship as soon as I got the technology for the design, and keep ordering another just before the first is built.

Unstable will be the cause of some of those war declarations. The Gizureans are quick to grow and expand and both they and the Boskarans are natural belligerents of the Securans. The Zenox aren't particularly quick expanders although they are about 3rd or 4th tech race usually. Perhaps try dropping the stability back down? Or forget about very hard for a while. To my mind it is not how hard you make the game but whether you have fun playing it which counts. [:)]



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 6:06:54 PM)

Yeah 600 yard production is my figure and it goes up to 1800 once I get the bakkus shipyard thing.

OK, so you say the Zenox are not particularity quick expanders. So the only thing I've done is to make 4 construction ships first (which takes much less time than one colony ship) and after that I've just queued colony ships. So how come they have managed twice the number of colonies as me? For that matter how do the "quick expanders" do it if they are limited to 600 as well?

I don't really want to lower the difficulty because I can win easily if i do which isn't so much fun. So I want to figure things out, that's what i call fun with these games. Obviously one strategy is war and just take someone else's colonies, but that's not really the Securan's bag and I'm sort of like a dog with a bone to work out how to get them off the ground at this difficulty - on a normal start so I don't have to slog through the whole pre-warp thing for each attempt.



DeadlyShoe -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/29/2014 8:28:15 PM)

just fyi # of colonies is not necessarily a big deal except for victory conditions.

it's population and individual high-quality colonies that matters.

also like people said it's invasions/colonizing independents that helps with fast expansion.




CaptainZero -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/30/2014 8:30:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

just fyi # of colonies is not necessarily a big deal except for victory conditions.

it's population and individual high-quality colonies that matters.

also like people said it's invasions/colonizing independents that helps with fast expansion.




True, but you have to keep moving those borders out to get at all the good stuff the galaxy has to offer! A tactic I use is to skip colonizing worlds that are already within my border. I figure that in the beginning marking my territory is more important and that I can always go back and colonize the worlds I skipped.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Balance of pre-warp vs normal start (7/30/2014 9:37:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptainZero


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

just fyi # of colonies is not necessarily a big deal except for victory conditions.

it's population and individual high-quality colonies that matters.

also like people said it's invasions/colonizing independents that helps with fast expansion.




True, but you have to keep moving those borders out to get at all the good stuff the galaxy has to offer! A tactic I use is to skip colonizing worlds that are already within my border. I figure that in the beginning marking my territory is more important and that I can always go back and colonize the worlds I skipped.



yeah, that's been my main concern. Turns out now I have the bakus shipyard at full throttle I have easily caught up with my Zenox neighbours. But because they were able to colonise more at the start of the game they have gobbled up a lot of space in my cluster. In addition with both nearby clusters occupied I am effectively boxed into about 40% of my starting cluster. The Zenox are natural allies for me in this game, but the game mechanics will not allow that relationship to flourish in this geometry it seems. So far it's gone like this:

1. Zenox develop positive attitude to me (they like my government etc)
2. I build a mine at the only source of nekros stone currently available to me.
3. They colonise a planet nearby and the mine falls under their zone of control - they go angry at my presence in their terrotory
4. I eventually colonise a planet near the disputed mine, this shifts my ZoC back over it.
5. Zenox go friendly again and immediately offer free trade agreement, yay!
6. Short while later Zenox get a massive "we covet your colonies and resources" modifier. Boo!

It's clear where this is heading - both me and Zenox have nowhere to go really and being about equal strength this is not going to end well. Boskarans and Naxxilians lurk in the neigbouring sectors ready to pick up the pieces.

The reason I mentioned balance in the thread title was it seems to me that starting pre-warp makes it far more possible to establish dominance in a cluster by microing pop growth and rushing colony ships early. It seems virtually impossible with a standard start on very hard/unstable/cluster. The only way I can see is to play for immediate war and conquest of rivals in your cluster, but that's not the Securan way.



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