4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air

4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (Full Version)

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seille -> 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/3/2014 9:12:42 AM)
I know this was posted already, but it seems so far it has not been fixed. So i hope MichaelM and/or Symon will look at it. This turn i had over Rabaul again such a encounter. Scenario 2, one of the latest Betas, September 1943. Two little waves of B24 attacked during night time and met 16 Ki-45 i used there as CAP. Clear weather, the right altitude (slightly above the bombers) and still the 9 bombers manage to destroy 10 (!!!) of my Nicks. 7 in A2A and 3 OPS. Sorry, but this can´t be WAD. How can the gunner perform this way under these conditions while the expert Nick pilots don´t hit anything ? My estimate for that fight during daylight ? 2-3 Nick lost, 5-6 Bombers lost (A2A and OPS). I think that my pilots have problems during night time is flying a daytime fighter is ok. What i don´t think is ok are the losses they take to the allied gunnners, which should have at least similar problems. Long time ago the extreme performance of allied 4E in daylight against jap fighters was adjusted a bit. Imho the devs simply forgot to do the same for night time combat. I think this was overseen or there is simply a bug in the engine. This is just ONE example, but a good one. Please don´t try to explain the result to me and try to justify the outcome. No need for whitewashing these kind of results. Night Air attack on Rabaul , at 106,125 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid detected at 22 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 7 minutes Japanese aircraft Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 16 Allied aircraft B-24D Liberator x 4 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 destroyed No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet * Port Attack: 5 x 500 lb GP Bomb CAP engaged: 264th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling) 4 plane(s) intercepting now. Group patrol altitude is 16000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes --------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Rabaul , at 106,125 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 15 minutes Japanese aircraft Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 4 Allied aircraft B-24D Liberator x 5 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 5 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 15000 feet * Port Attack: 5 x 500 lb GP Bomb CAP engaged: 264th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 4 plane(s) intercepting now. Group patrol altitude is 16000 , scrambling fighters to 15000. Raid is overhead

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 12:56:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seille Please don´t try to explain the result to me and try to justify the outcome. No need for whitewashing these kind of results. OK, I won't provide any details per your request. Everthing looks fine. I doubt any of the devs will respond ...

Yaab -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 4:09:46 AM)
Seille, can you redo the turn? If so, watch the combat animations and read the messages that appear there. Notice how Nicks perform their attacks. Is it lower front/lower rear, side attacks etc.? If a Nick attacks from rear/lower rear/upper rear, it faces 4 x 0.50 Brownings with accuracy of 29. That can hurt. BTW, since it is a night attack, do Nicks open fire at ranges 5-6 or shorter?

seille -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 5:27:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo OK, I won't provide any details per your request. Everthing looks fine. I doubt any of the devs will respond ... Sorry, but i´m tired to hear how good the engine works. The engine is not perfect and this is a good example. I posted this just for the devs hoping they´ll look at. @Yaab It was not the first nighttime outcome like this. 10 out of 16 two-engine fighters dead. Not even a OPS loss for the bomber. It is obvious that the night matters only for the fighters, not for the 4E. Even my opponent confirmed that this fight was unreal.

Barb -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 6:33:24 AM)
I had similar encounters in my game... of the 12 Nicks on night CAP - a total of 2 managed to fire, damaging one 4E... Of the 12 Nicks 3 were shot down certainly, several more damaged and ops losses. Most of the Nicks did not even managed a shot before being damaged by defensive fire ... Do I have to mention the Nick drivers are 70 exp/70 Air skill guys? I suppose that 4E defensive skills are rather high, but it should not have been that effective in the night ...

Yaab -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 7:11:01 AM)
Wait, what was the moonlight like? Maybe the losses are skewed due to 90% moonlight or something? BTW, Ki-45 KAIa Nick is not a night-fighter. Maybe the code treats standard fighters differently when they engage bombers during night?

seille -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 8:04:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Barb I had similar encounters in my game... of the 12 Nicks on night CAP - a total of 2 managed to fire, damaging one 4E... Of the 12 Nicks 3 were shot down certainly, several more damaged and ops losses. Most of the Nicks did not even managed a shot before being damaged by defensive fire ... Do I have to mention the Nick drivers are 70 exp/70 Air skill guys? I suppose that 4E defensive skills are rather high, but it should not have been that effective in the night ... Good to see i´m not alone here. My Nick pilots were experienced and skilled, too. Both in the 70s. I think the defensive skills of the 4Es are either higher at night compared to daylight or the ability of the attacking fighters to do damage was drastically decreased. That´s why i cannot understand what Yaab says. Moonlight would make things worse ? Why ? OPS losses would likely happen in full darkness for day fighter pilots. Same for attack or defense ? It is too dark for the Nick pilpots to fire at their targets (which is much bigger than their Nick), but the allied gunners can fire at the Nicks AND hit ? As i wrote earlier it is absolutely ok, that the Nicks do not destroy a half dozen bombers here, but darkness should matter for both sides and the losses among the fighters should be much smaller and be mostly OPS losses. Daytime fighters will have problems to manoeuvre in darkness or to find the enemy, but beside that they should have no real disadvantage. Especially not with 90& moonlight. Allied gunners seem to be better than in daylight. Such a result i would never see in daylight in my game.

Yaab -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 9:33:34 AM)
I am just wild guessing. As per manual, night fighters have a better chance of engaging bombers during night. Thus, maybe standard fighters, which engage bombers during night, attack at some coded disadvantage? I would sandbox the whole thing using early Nicks and specialised Irvings against B-24s.

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 12:14:33 PM)
OP, If you want to vent, NP. Go for it, we all need to do that from time to time. Its not a model issue though; you had no warning, then your Nicks went in piecemeal via rear pursuit aftr a long climb and got shot up. But, they did their job; no damage to the port or the ships therein. That should count as a win, and if not, then why are you defending the target?

JocMeister -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 2:04:15 PM)
Don´t worry. You will shoot down 20-30 B29s per night with massed NFs over the HI later in the war. Kind of interesting as the B-29 bomber pilots never feared Japanese fighters as they were too slow, had too short warning and climbed too slow to have an even remote chance to intercept the B29s. Yet in the game you can shoot them down in droves. Point being: sure the engine has it quirks but it goes both ways.

btd64 -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/4/2014 11:20:29 PM)
I'm not a JFB, so I don't know. So does the Nick have radar for night interception? GP

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 3:37:05 AM)
air radar doesn't come in until '45

witpqs -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 9:02:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo air radar doesn't come in until '45 Are you sure? I thought there were lots of air radar equipped planes (in the game) before '45.

btd64 -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 11:23:44 AM)
If the Nick doesn't have radar, Maybe the attack went in piece meal and the Nicks were picked off as they came into range....GP

Erkki -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 5:47:00 PM)
Night bombing and night air-to-air is borked. That's it. Everyone gets those results. It's maybe WAD but the results are far from realistic. More specifically: fighters are less effective in shooting down bombers in the night. Fine: its dark or pitch black, the bombers appear over target one by one and fighters mostly don't have radars. And if they do, they are very primitive ones. What you witnessed is the other side of the coin: the bomber gunners are not less effective in night(despite the darkness, despite not flying in formations and so forth) or are only very slightly so. What ensues is that any nigh fighter CAP that does not have huge numbers, radars, ground radar, armour and cannons gets chewed up or just plain murdered by the gunners of even relatively lightly armed bombers way worse than they would in daytime air combat. It doesn't help that night CAP will be grounded in daylight so the outranging side(or the one with the initiative) can get an even better kill ratio. By every now and then changing from night to day and back. You can counter BS with BS of your own and bombing the enemy 4E bases in the night with G4Ms. But BS balancing BS is still BS. The solution that IMHO saves both players' sanity: create house rules that forbid night flying completely or at least considerably limit it somehow. PS. Which game version are you playing? Night air combat and night bombing algorithms were changed to much, much better direction in one of the betas. You may want to try it out.

HansBolter -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 7:55:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erkki Night bombing and night air-to-air is borked. That's it. Everyone gets those results. It's maybe WAD but the results are far from realistic. More specifically: fighters are less effective in shooting down bombers in the night. Fine: its dark or pitch black, the bombers appear over target one by one and fighters mostly don't have radars. And if they do, they are very primitive ones. What you witnessed is the other side of the coin: the bomber gunners are not less effective in night(despite the darkness, despite not flying in formations and so forth) or are only very slightly so. What ensues is that any nigh fighter CAP that does not have huge numbers, radars, ground radar, armour and cannons gets chewed up or just plain murdered by the gunners of even relatively lightly armed bombers way worse than they would in daytime air combat. It doesn't help that night CAP will be grounded in daylight so the outranging side(or the one with the initiative) can get an even better kill ratio. By every now and then changing from night to day and back. You can counter BS with BS of your own and bombing the enemy 4E bases in the night with G4Ms. But BS balancing BS is still BS. The solution that IMHO saves both players' sanity: create house rules that forbid night flying completely or at least considerably limit it somehow. PS. Which game version are you playing? Night air combat and night bombing algorithms were changed to much, much better direction in one of the betas. You may want to try it out. And how does that fix the unrealistic shooting down in droves of 4Es in the late war period? They would be forced to fly in daylight when the already Japanese biased model will guarantee they will be slaughtered. You solution give reprieve to the Japanese from the early bias against them and guarantees the Allies will suffer even more from the bias when it turns against them.

witpqs -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 8:01:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Erkki Night bombing and night air-to-air is borked. That's it. Everyone gets those results. It's maybe WAD but the results are far from realistic. More specifically: fighters are less effective in shooting down bombers in the night. Fine: its dark or pitch black, the bombers appear over target one by one and fighters mostly don't have radars. And if they do, they are very primitive ones. What you witnessed is the other side of the coin: the bomber gunners are not less effective in night(despite the darkness, despite not flying in formations and so forth) or are only very slightly so. What ensues is that any nigh fighter CAP that does not have huge numbers, radars, ground radar, armour and cannons gets chewed up or just plain murdered by the gunners of even relatively lightly armed bombers way worse than they would in daytime air combat. It doesn't help that night CAP will be grounded in daylight so the outranging side(or the one with the initiative) can get an even better kill ratio. By every now and then changing from night to day and back. You can counter BS with BS of your own and bombing the enemy 4E bases in the night with G4Ms. But BS balancing BS is still BS. The solution that IMHO saves both players' sanity: create house rules that forbid night flying completely or at least considerably limit it somehow. PS. Which game version are you playing? Night air combat and night bombing algorithms were changed to much, much better direction in one of the betas. You may want to try it out. And how does that fix the unrealistic shooting down in droves of 4Es in the late war period? They would be forced to fly in daylight when the already Japanese biased model will guarantee they will be slaughtered. You solution give reprieve to the Japanese from the early bias against them and guarantees the Allies will suffer even more from the bias when it turns against them. You also don't mention that a large chunk of the B-29 production is modeled in the game (as it was IRL) with almost all armament removed so as to serve as a night bomber.

Erkki -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 8:57:40 PM)
Can you please read what I type before answering. Nothing stops you from limiting target type, plane type, date and so forth. There just isn't a proper counter. Its OP, broken. Even trying to counter it is for the most part counter productive: night fighters get shot down by night bombers(LOL) and don't participate in daytime action and may get torched on the ground. The game is supposed to be fun. Night bombing isn't. It's to some extent supposed to be a simulation that gives realistic historical or historically plausible results. Night air to air and to some extend bombing/torpedo attack results aren't that either. It doesn't matter which side one plays. Having not fun isn't fun which is why many PBEM players deal away with it altogether. quote: And how does that fix the unrealistic shooting down in droves of 4Es in the late war period? They would be forced to fly in daylight when the already Japanese biased model will guarantee they will be slaughtered. You solution give reprieve to the Japanese from the early bias against them and guarantees the Allies will suffer even more from the bias when it turns against them. What unrealistic shooting down in droves of 4Es in late war? They did very much go down in droves when they met actual resistance. What Japanese biased model? If you mean the air combat results, yes, its very biased against the Allies. Not. If war economy and R&D, you can deal away with both just as easily as you can with night bombing madness. What Allied suffering? They can win the war blindfolded and one hand tied behind the back. If you suffer from playing the game, maybe you should stop. What bias? You keep repeating these same things for years.

seille -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 9:47:07 PM)
Erkki it feels good that i´m not alone. What you posted is exactly my experience. As i wrote earlier i do not expect to destroy many bombers in the night using daytime fighters (no radar), but i expect a MUCH higher chance to survive such encounters for my experienced fighter pilots using a twin-engine-fighter with armor and solid armament vs. small number of attacking bombers which should be as blind as my fighter pilots...... OPS losses might be ok, but with 90% moonlight over a big airfield with very experienced and fresh pilots i would not expect many. I agree this can never be a realistic outcome compared to my daylight air combat vs. 4Es. Imho there is a easy solution. Just reduce the lethality of allied gunners during nighttime. They are much more deadly than in daylight. At least in my game which uses one of the last betas. I wished MichaelM would think about. But maybe he´s doing already. I´m sure this is not easy to balance, but actually it is off balance especially when you play without any rules for night bombing.

HansBolter -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 10:24:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erkki Can you please read what I type before answering. Nothing stops you from limiting target type, plane type, date and so forth. There just isn't a proper counter. Its OP, broken. Even trying to counter it is for the most part counter productive: night fighters get shot down by night bombers(LOL) and don't participate in daytime action and may get torched on the ground. The game is supposed to be fun. Night bombing isn't. It's to some extent supposed to be a simulation that gives realistic historical or historically plausible results. Night air to air and to some extend bombing/torpedo attack results aren't that either. It doesn't matter which side one plays. Having not fun isn't fun which is why many PBEM players deal away with it altogether. quote: And how does that fix the unrealistic shooting down in droves of 4Es in the late war period? They would be forced to fly in daylight when the already Japanese biased model will guarantee they will be slaughtered. You solution give reprieve to the Japanese from the early bias against them and guarantees the Allies will suffer even more from the bias when it turns against them. What unrealistic shooting down in droves of 4Es in late war? They did very much go down in droves when they met actual resistance. What Japanese biased model? If you mean the air combat results, yes, its very biased against the Allies. Not. If war economy and R&D, you can deal away with both just as easily as you can with night bombing madness. What Allied suffering? They can win the war blindfolded and one hand tied behind the back. If you suffer from playing the game, maybe you should stop. What bias? You keep repeating these same things for years. Try reading JockeMiester's AAR of his game against Obvert and maybe you will actually get a clue!

Erkki -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/5/2014 11:03:22 PM)
So I'm wrong again, because of reasons? [:'(]

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 12:07:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo air radar doesn't come in until '45 Are you sure? I thought there were lots of air radar equipped planes (in the game) before '45. Devices don't activate until '45 ... they are in the plane setups, but won't actually arrive until device is active.

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 12:11:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: General Patton If the Nick doesn't have radar, Maybe the attack went in piece meal and the Nicks were picked off as they came into range....GP That is pretty much how the combat report reads .... and likely 50% never actually came in contact with enemy as well. Can't know that without the combat animation though ... but what you had was serial 1 fighter against 2 or more 4E's that have more firepower than the fighter. Granted, for the IJ, Nick has good armament. But that is relative to Oscar. Compare it to a '43 FW-109 though ... its way slower, less armament, less manouverable .... ok, the Nick is a piece of crap. So if the FW109 had its hands full taking on B24/B17's, why should any JFB speculate about any IJ fighter struggling? BTW: I'm not suggesting that night air combat doesn't have some issues. However, the latest beta fixes a lot and more or less the issue balance themselves out. erkki says B____, but maybe he isn't running the latest beta. Latest beta, things can work for both sides.

Erkki -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 12:32:14 AM)
Latest beta. Doesn't change the fact, that had it been a daytime engagement and all Ki-45s had time to attack, it'd have ended very differently. It isnt about the firepower or armor even. It doesn't go to this specific battle only, it goes to all night air-air: gunners remain very effective while fighters are not. Night air combat, folks, night, not day. The Ki-45s here and fighters find the bombers perfectly well as they get shot down by the said bombers better in the night than in dayligh. They should not. Of course I speak bullshit when people run out of arguments when defending a pet exploit. (for some people any way). If you want an example of someone having his air force shot down by nocturnal B-24 sweeps that take zero casualties, and we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of planes shot down that include armoured ones and over a base with radars, check out Lowpe's AAR. I don't think he should counter those sweeps or night bombings because its counter productive. Even if night air combat was more realistic it could still be waste of resources. But hes still enjoying something nearly 0 to infinite ratio against bombers, and only because they happen to fly in the night. Think about it.

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 12:48:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erkki Latest beta. Doesn't change the fact, that had it been a daytime engagement and all Ki-45s had time to attack, it'd have ended very differently. It isnt about the firepower or armor even. It doesn't go to this specific battle only, it goes to all night air-air: gunners remain very effective while fighters are not. Night air combat, folks, night, not day. The Ki-45s here and fighters find the bombers perfectly well as they get shot down by the said bombers better in the night than in dayligh. They should not. Of course I speak bullshit when people run out of arguments when defending a pet exploit. (for some people any way). If you want an example of someone having his air force shot down by nocturnal B-24 sweeps that take zero casualties, and we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of planes shot down that include armoured ones and over a base with radars, check out Lowpe's AAR. I don't think he should counter those sweeps or night bombings because its counter productive. Even if night air combat was more realistic it could still be waste of resources. But hes still enjoying something nearly 0 to infinite ratio against bombers, and only because they happen to fly in the night. Think about it. Are you referring to the OP here? If so, you are not reading the same OP that I am.

witpqs -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 12:57:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo air radar doesn't come in until '45 Are you sure? I thought there were lots of air radar equipped planes (in the game) before '45. Devices don't activate until '45 ... they are in the plane setups, but won't actually arrive until device is active. No - this pic is from March '44, although I recall these planes had their radar in '43. Others certainly did too, maybe some in '42 for all I remember. [image]local://upfiles/14248/D9BC9B17ED7C4A629FEE629475036BB2.jpg[/image]

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 1:19:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo air radar doesn't come in until '45 Are you sure? I thought there were lots of air radar equipped planes (in the game) before '45. Devices don't activate until '45 ... they are in the plane setups, but won't actually arrive until device is active. No - this pic is from March '44, although I recall these planes had their radar in '43. Others certainly did too, maybe some in '42 for all I remember. [image]local://upfiles/14248/D9BC9B17ED7C4A629FEE629475036BB2.jpg[/image] I was referring to IJ planes aka NICK. I am well aware the allies get it much earlier. I have a page full os caualties because of that! [;)]

PaxMondo -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 1:24:38 AM)
Device 1923 become active 10/45 Device 1922 becomes active 6/45 S1A1 uses 1923 Q1W1 uses 1922

witpqs -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 2:08:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo air radar doesn't come in until '45 Are you sure? I thought there were lots of air radar equipped planes (in the game) before '45. Devices don't activate until '45 ... they are in the plane setups, but won't actually arrive until device is active. No - this pic is from March '44, although I recall these planes had their radar in '43. Others certainly did too, maybe some in '42 for all I remember. [image]local://upfiles/14248/D9BC9B17ED7C4A629FEE629475036BB2.jpg[/image] I was referring to IJ planes aka NICK. I am well aware the allies get it much earlier. I have a page full os caualties because of that! [;)] Oh, I had thought you meant universally.

Spidery -> RE: 4E Night Bomber in Air-to-Air (8/6/2014 6:41:55 AM)
Until the development of "Wilde Sau" (or airborne centi-metric radar) there was no way to use mass aircraft to counter night bombing runs. Instead, the Germans relied upon en route interception by one aircraft at a time but at multiple spots. The game doesn't model any form of en route interception. The massed searchlights needed for Wilde Sau don't exist. There should be no historic expectation for the Japanese to intercept Allied strikes. Historically, the Japanese had great difficulty countering night raids. Using a small number of aircraft on night CAP seems to achieve historic results. That is, it does little damage, loses few planes, but decreases bomber accuracy. If you use ahistoric tactics then undesirable outcomes result. Also, fighters at night should attack from below the aircraft and not above (it is very hard to see a plane at night below you against dark land). Whether the game models that I have no idea. Arguably, the problem is that night bombing of facilities is more effective than historically was the case and therefore a counter is needed to what was, mostly, just a minor annoyance. However, the unusual effectiveness of night bombing is, in part, just a consequence of the ability to maintain an ahistoric tempo of air operations across the board. Fortunately, the Japanese have a limited counter, they can realise there is an issue from December 7th and deploy night fighters earlier than historically was the case. Another issue not modeled is the ease with which you can swap aircraft between day and night roles. This doesn't model the use of different camouflage patterns for night or day use, different bomb sights, etc. This doesn't mean you may not want House Rules to give what you consider a better gaming experience.

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