RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (Full Version)

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Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/4/2014 1:11:26 PM)

Hi GreyJoy.

Operation SF was the original Japanese plan to cut off Australia by taking New Caledonia, the Fijis, and Samoa. It was deferred till after Midway (Operation MI) and cancelled after the Midway losses.

The scenario presumes that Operation SF goes off first, with Operation MI following thereafter. The scenario takes place after the Battle of the Coral Sea and kicks off on June 1, 1942.

SF was just the code name; very cleverly concealing (very creverry concearing, as Cap Mandrake would say) the objective. One might guess that SF meant Samoa-Fiji, but that would be sheer coincidence, just like MI was Midway Island, MO was Moresby, NK was New Caledonia, FI was Fiji, SA was Samoa [:D][:D][:D].



Don Bowen -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/4/2014 3:53:43 PM)

John

On the PatRons…

I'm a little confused. A parent-child relationship set up in the editor should work just fine. It "wastes" a slot for the parent but there are plenty of air group slots. Not at home right now and have only my memory, but I believe you could set up a 12-plan PatRon and multiple divisions (children) of it. Not limited to three, Divisions should recombined OK when in the same hex and the patron can be rebuilt when all the divisions are together. Of course this prohibits additional division in the game.

I use this in my scenario and cheat by having the sum of the divisions exceed the parent (a 12-plane PatRon with three divisions totaling 15 or so aircraft).

I will be home next week and I'll get in touch.

Don



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/4/2014 4:26:12 PM)

I understand. I will have non-deployed PatRons set up with split=3 at standard size and have reserve planes set to bring the parent up to snuff. Was also thinking of parent-child thingys where the sum of the children is greater than the "standard" size of the parent.

This is a small scenario, after all, so I got a poopload of slots to work with so can do both.

Thanks for your help. I was getting tangled up in my underpants. Needed a reality check.

Ciao. John



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/6/2014 3:44:34 PM)

Ok then. The first look is being posted on the website. Please note, this is not a playable scenario, just a first look at both side’s OOBs (land and air) for comments purposes. Ships and such are not yet done so please don’t comment about them.

The manual is about 70% finished. The manual is bifurcated into two sections:

An Allied manual, with rules, tips, and discussion as to victory conditions. It includes details of the “secret sauce” as to supply, reinforcement, upgrades (in the absence of the production model), and where, when, and why.

A Japanese manual, with rules, tips, and discussion as to victory conditions. It includes details of the “secret sauce” as to supply, reinforcement, upgrades (in the absence of the production model), and where, when, and why.

Following the general Babes philosophy, one will find some interesting HQ restriction structures, along with hard rules as to how to deal with them. Aviation support is as limited as it was in actuality. Flying lots missions will result in a 50% boneyard, as it was in actuality. Many Allied LCUs have unacceptable Exp ratings, but are set for readiness at designated “Training Camps” to train up to nominal standards.

Basically, the Allies have mass, but it’s either restricted or totally green. Japan has a smaller OOB, but it’s components have the advantage of experience and tactical surprise.

That's the real push, isn't it?



Mac Linehan -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/10/2014 7:00:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Ok then. The first look is being posted on the website. Please note, this is not a playable scenario, just a first look at both side’s OOBs (land and air) for comments purposes. Ships and such are not yet done so please don’t comment about them.

The manual is about 70% finished. The manual is bifurcated into two sections:

An Allied manual, with rules, tips, and discussion as to victory conditions. It includes details of the “secret sauce” as to supply, reinforcement, upgrades (in the absence of the production model), and where, when, and why.

A Japanese manual, with rules, tips, and discussion as to victory conditions. It includes details of the “secret sauce” as to supply, reinforcement, upgrades (in the absence of the production model), and where, when, and why.

Following the general Babes philosophy, one will find some interesting HQ restriction structures, along with hard rules as to how to deal with them. Aviation support is as limited as it was in actuality. Flying lots missions will result in a 50% boneyard, as it was in actuality. Many Allied LCUs have unacceptable Exp ratings, but are set for readiness at designated “Training Camps” to train up to nominal standards.

Basically, the Allies have mass, but it’s either restricted or totally green. Japan has a smaller OOB, but it’s components have the advantage of experience and tactical surprise.

That's the real push, isn't it?



John -

Good News! Can't take a look till this weekend; but am sure looking forward to it!

Mac



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/11/2014 5:24:00 PM)

Woof !! Have hit the wall of all those "don't move HQs" and "don't do this or that" in the editor manual. And have hit the AI wall in the interaction between the scen data and its aiexxx.dat file. Woof !!

Every time we move the paradigm for the AE standard, something surfaces from GG's original establishment that requires a rethink. The scenario is done, so far as we are concerned, but it needs a lot of care and feeding to make it functional within the AE standard system.

Learning a lot about the interaction between the editor values and the game executable, particularly the AI selectable slots and the imperitives of the engine. Will obviously be a while before this scenario is ready for standard AE play. Sorry 'bout that, but don't want to do something that's not righty tighty.



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/20/2014 3:49:57 PM)

The first look is being posted today on the website. Please note this is only valid for the land and air OOBs and starting positions. The ships are being worked on, they will be done soon. The supply/replacement model is a wip. Things need to be fought out a bit more to see what is needed, and in what increments. The supply/replacements model will use periodic “convoys” to add troops, equipment, and airframes to the pools.

The Philippines are mostly blank (out of play). Manila exists as a “simulated” repair yard for moderate sized vessels and as a home for certain static HQs that are necessary for scenario purposes. Manila, thus, is active, but it is “Out Of Play”.

Here’s a cheat sheet for the Allied OOBs/TOEs:
Aus GHQ and the Area Commands are Perm Restricted. Almost all Aus units (excepting the AIF) are restricted to one degree or another. Certain brigades are Temp, the others are Perm. One must pay PPs to release Aus units for service (but we built in a cheap trick).

LH units went through many permutations over time, so they are listed in a sequence, with withdrawal and re-introduction dates as best we can figure. So there may be a LH Cav Regt, a LH MG Regt, a LH Mot Regt, and perhaps whatever it finally morphed into, unless disbanded (do it once to avoid doing it over and over). The scenario date selects the actual configuration.

Aus armour units go through the same conceptual churning. They begin as training cadres with a half dozen, or so, Vickers and a bunch of local pattern carriers. As “convoys” arrive with M3 Lees/Stuarts, they can upgrade and fill out to the next level. They are based at Puckapunyal, and Puckapunyal is a “training” base, so things are cool so long as it is supplied.

All Allied units are reduced in experience. There are “training camps” that many units are prepped for so they can train to their nominal exp ratings. If one throws them into battle otherwise, they are just raw meat. One must spend time to get one’s units into condition for combat. That often means a “forlorn hope” as speed bump (sound familiar?).

Even the Marines are not the “elite” formations one is used to seeing. They are good enough to hold and fight, but will have problems with a very experienced IJ formation until they gain some battlefield experience.

So, there you go with the concept part. I’ll do a units comparison in the next series of posts.

Ciao. JWE



Mac Linehan -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/22/2014 6:39:44 AM)

Hi, John!

Am on Christmas Break (two weeks Baby!). Just downloaded the Operation SF preview. Good work; will patiently wait for more.

Edit - Operation SF is a big scenario, area wise. I would suspect that ships / air / LCU units are few in number; and are at a premium. So plan ahead carefully...

And just look at the experience level of the Rabaul Zero boys - would not want to tangle with that bunch!

This is gonna be good.

Mac



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (12/26/2014 2:50:17 PM)

Ships are getting done. There’s certain scenario rules that pertain to CVs such that one cannot play the 900 pound gorilla in the form of the “KB”. This is to avoid the special game engine gifts to an IJN ‘KB’ TF. A carrier TF may only be comprised of a maximum of 2x CVs, and 1x CVLs. Period. Multiple TFs may operate in concert to comprise a ‘virtual’ KB, but the individual CV-TF composition is a HARD scenario limit. Believe me, it works.

In the Scen, (for 1st Mobile Fleet purposes) the IJN gets CarDiv 1, CarDiv 2, and the 1st Support Group. This grouping comprises CarDiv 1 and 2 (duh), BatDiv 3, CruDiv 8, and DesRon 10. DesDivs 10/4 and 10/17 are assigned to the CarDivs, DesDiv 10/10 is with the Support Group. Mix and match as one pleases, so long as one doesn’t violate the Air principle.

Them as were there, are there now, in their actual groupings. Ciao. JWE



bigred -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (12/30/2014 3:38:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

You made me look up ileocecal valve, wish I hadn't know. It's amazing what you can learn on this website. [;)]

John, that looked like one hell of a menu. Got me hungry reading it.

+1, sounds like a scenario out of Uncommon Valor.



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/3/2015 2:53:41 PM)

So here it is. Remember, the hard scenario rule is that no TF may have more than 2 Fleet CVs AND no more than 4 CVs of any kind (CV, CVL, CVE, CVS). The KB exists in the scenario but is comprised of its elements. The Mobile Group comprises CarDiv 1 (Akagi, Kaga) and CarDiv 2 (Hiryu, Soryu) BatDiv3, CruDiv 8, and DesRon 10. It is broken down into three TFs; 2x Air TFs and a SAG TF – making the KB a 3-TF unit that sails together. Here’s their scenario initial setup.

Mobile Group CarDiv 1
CarDiv 1: Akagi, Kaga
DesDiv 10: Kazagumo, Makigumo, Yugumo, Akigumo

Mobile Group CarDiv 2
CarDiv 2: Hiryu, Soryu
DesDiv 17: Urakaze, Isokaze, Tanikaze, Hamakaze

Mobile Group Screen
BatDiv 3: Hiei, Kirishima, Kongo, Haruna
CruDiv 8: Tone, Chikuma
DesRon 10: Nagara
DesDiv 4: Noawki, Arashi, Hagikaze, Maikaze

Obviously, ships can be reassigned, making the KB a 2-TF unit, so long as the CV restriction(s) are followed.

In keeping with Japanese doctrine, there are two invasion Support Groups (to support two near simultaneous invasions). These are initially made up of CarDiv 3, CarDiv 4, BatDiv 2, CruDiv 4, and DesRon 4, as follows. Once again, ships may be reassigned, so long as the CV restriction(s) are followed.

1st Invasion Group
CarDiv 3: Zuiho, Chitose
DesDiv 2 Harusame, Murasame, Semidare, Yudachi

1st Invasion Screen
BatDiv 2/1: Hyuga, Ise
CruDiv 4/1: Atago, Chokai
DesRon 4 – Yura
DesDiv 9 Asagumo, Minegumo, Natsugumo, Yamagumo

2nd Invasion Group
CarDiv 4: Ryujo, Mizuho
DesDiv 24 Yamakaze, Suzukaze, Umikaze, Kawakaze

2nd Invasion Screen
BatDiv 2/2: Fuso, Yamashiro
CruDiv 4/2: Maya, Takao
DesDiv 20 Sagiri, Amagiri, Asagiri, Yugiri

As always, there is a Main Body lurking about, with a 1st Fleet component and a 2nd Fleet component; basically BatDiv 1, CruDiv 7 and DesRon 3, along with a Special Force from CVSDiv 11 (Chiyoda, Nisshin).

Main Body
BatDiv 1: Yamato, Nagato, Mutsu
CruDiv 7: Kumano, Mikumi, Magami, Suzuya
SpDiv 11: Chiyoda, Nisshin
DesRon 3 – Sendai
DesDiv 11 Fubuki, Hatsuyuki, Shirayuki
DesDiv 12 Murakumo, Shinonome, Shirakumo, Usugumo
DesDiv 19 Isonami, Ayanami, Shikinami, Uranami

That’s about for 1st and 2nd Fleet and 1st Air Fleet on opening day. There’s also elements of 4th and 8th Fleets in the mix and additional units attached to Transport Groups. All in all, pretty much what was authorized/organized for the Midway/Aleutian operations, except that 4th and 8th Fleet units substitute for 5th Fleet.

Ciao JWE



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/3/2015 3:11:05 PM)

Shokaku is getting repaired; Zuikaku is getting new planes and pilots (as is Shokaku); Junyo is still classified as an auxiliary carrier and is patrolling home waters along with Hosho. Sho and Zui work up their new airgroups together and are available for service (as CarDiv 5) in the mid/late August time frame. Hiyo doesn't get fully comissioned till mid August and then must work up her air group. She and Junyo are available for service (as CarDiv 6) in the mid/late September time frame. Elements of CruDiv 5 traditionally operated with CarDiv 5 and other detached strike forces, as did DesDivs 7 and 27, as part of 1st Air Fleet. So ... reinforcements ... with CruDiv 5 distributed between CarDivs 5 and 6.

CarDiv 5: Shokaku, Zuikaku
DesDiv 27: Ariake, Yugure, Shigure, Shiratsuyu
CarDiv 6: Hiyo, Junyo
DesDiv 7 Akebono, Sazanami, Ushio
CruDiv 5: Myoko, Haguro, Nachi



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/3/2015 4:03:17 PM)

The scenario has many elements of a classical strategic “Fleet Problem”. There are four objectives: Samoa, Fiji, New Cal, New Guinea. The fleet make up can provide two powerful invasion support forces, with a Mobile Force lurking in wait for an anticipated Allied response; or can be split up to provide four invasion support forces but with no operational reserve.

And with four objectives, there’s juuuust not quite enough to hit them all simultaneously (transport shortage, don’t ya know) so the invasions must be phased, in time. So which one(s) first, and so on.

There’s a fifth, virtual, objective of luring the (supposed) rump of the US Fleet to its destruction in (supposedly) Japanese dominated waters. This imposes an additional strain on operational planning; stay conservative and keep an ambush element and if so, where? split the Mobile Fleet, go for a blitz, and hope you can re-concentrate in time? If the latter, how are the force components distributed along a 1400 mile arc to effectively oppose a response (can you visualize bataillon-carré)?

Because, the Allies have Yorktown, Enterprise, and Hornet on opening day, with Saratoga working up at San Diego. Wasp is in San Diego upgrading her air group and will be available for ops in late June/early July. A very potent reaction force.

Ooohh, this is a good one.



Mac Linehan -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/3/2015 7:39:17 PM)

John-

I particularly appreciate your breakdown of the forces involved and the explanation as to why those decisions were made.

Adding force specific scenario rules that represent the doctrine and tactics of that time is just icing on the cake. Thank You for taking the time and effort to do so; it really adds flavor and a challenge to the scenario.

Love my campaign game; but sometimes I just want to play something that moves right along - the Babes Small Scenarios fit the bill.

Mac




derhexer -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/3/2015 8:38:42 PM)

Symon is obviously putting a great deal of effort and love into this scenario. It should be great!!



ny59giants -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/4/2015 12:21:16 PM)

How will you be dealing with the important issue of logistics?? There are lots of fuel hogs in the Japanese OOB. Is there a reduction in amount of fuel Japan gets at Truk or do they have plenty??



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/4/2015 6:31:20 PM)

Complete revision of fuel available at bases. Because there is no “Japan”, and no production, the Japanese get periodic “magic” convoys with planes, devices, supply, and fuel. Supply and fuel arrive at rear area bases and must be moved to operational areas. There will be shortfalls and one will have to scramble (during the Solomons campaign, Yamato was a floating oil tank at Truk). Japan has precisely those auxiliary AOs that she had for the Midway/Aleut Ops. When they are dry, they must go a long way to replenish.

There is no monster fleet base in the Marshalls (i.e., no significant fuel/supply over requirements). Rabaul is just getting started (i.e., no significant fuel/supply over requirements). One would be surprised (if not shocked) to know the actual fuel farm capacity of Truk in mid 1942 (i.e., no significant fuel/supply over requirements). All these bases maintained fleets of small tankers as floating fuel dumps. That’s where the fuel was and when they were dry, guess what, they must go a long way to replenish.

The large-size-tanker fleet isn’t all that robust, either. One will need it all to hump the fuel from the main centers to the operational areas. One will quickly discover the utility of the smaller tankers in Babes, and why they were so ubiquitous in the region.

Same is true for supply. The (limited number of) large-size-cargo ships were converted to transports (either AK or xAK-t) and can be used for either amphib ops or hauling supply from the main centers to the operational areas. One will quickly discover the utility of the smaller transports in Babes, and why they were so ubiquitous in the region.

It’s a ‘not quite enough’, combined with ‘just in time’, combined with ‘oh $hit’.

Just so you don’t get the wrong idea, the Allies operate under exactly the same constraints, but adapted to their specific conditions. There was a reason Nimitz was screaming for TKs/AOs.



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/4/2015 7:22:54 PM)

Am watching Le Fantôme de l'Opéra, the '86 version by Webber, Hart and Stilgoe. Stunning. Ciao. JWE



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/6/2015 4:06:29 PM)

Something I always wondered is why the DD screen of TF-17 changes so radically between the early/Doolittle raids and Midway. Then, doing this scenario, I got an epiphany! Those DDs were from DesDivs 12 and 22 and had been humping hard since opening day. They had been ridden hard and put away wet for several months.

So, after Doolittle, the puir wee DDs got replaced by their DesRon Div partners or whatever other DesDiv was in port, slicked up, and ready to boogie. The old and tired needed maintenance (fix the SysDam) and a couple weeks for upgrades.

This puts a premium on ship upgrades. Ships operating since opening day have not had the opportunity to upgrade. Ships in port move through the process slowly; Some have upgraded, but most have not. Even though the scenario starts 6/42, the 4/42 upgrades have not been done except for specific vessels. Since certain upgrades require a shipyard, and may take 3 weeks, it seems like a rational push. One gets what one pays for.

Oh, yes, Japan gets exactly the same philosophy, except their upgrade shipyard is in Japan. BTW, I raped the early radars, for both sides. Japan doesn’t get any except those that were specifically identified. Allies get some, but their stats suck.



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario - Radar (1/6/2015 4:11:16 PM)

Funny thing is just how small the DD pool was. One wonders why Nimitz was screaming for more DDs and AOs. Maybe not any more.
Ciao. JWE



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (1/17/2015 4:42:58 PM)

Woof !! This was a pain. Durn near as bad as making a whole new set-up. Heck, it was a whole new set-up; toes, locations, ships, planes, trains, and automobiles. Allies are done. Opening day has a few features worth noting.

37th ID (-) is in convoys heading for NZ. Supposed to go to Fiji, but intelligence suggests that’s not a good idea at the moment, so the convoy was diverted to Auckland. 1st MarDiv (-) is in convoys headed to Wellington, but taking the southern route.

There’s a CV TF roaming around, but the others are at Pearl, or heading for Pearl, or waiting to appear. There’s cruiser and BB TFs here and there, made up with formal DesDiv components. They are there as ‘holding’ TFs, assigned to their respective stations as of opening day. A few of these, notably DesRon 12, are rationally distributed into bases.

Transport ships appear as they did. There’s perhaps enough to hump what they had to, but I wouldn’t depend on it. Troop transport was either on APs or xAPs, as was done. However, the hard, fast scenario rule is that no Amphib TF may EVER include an ‘x’ ship. There is a special rule for Japan (for AKs and –t’s) that mirrors this. So everything is constrained for everybody.

Everything is constrained. Hootz Gazooties. This is not your nephew’s AE scenario.



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (1/23/2015 4:59:20 PM)

Apropos of nothing at all: went to Moseley's Meats to get my usual lamb and porterhouse order. Chris says they have some late kill duck and quail breasts in the cooler. Gosh, what's a boy to do? So I got some. One of the nieces is married to a serious "Ducks Unlimited" hunter, and they are coming down to visit in Feb. So duck breasts marinated in garlic, on the grill, with roast asparagus and mashed carrots/pumpkins. Sweet onions, mirin, spices, things that inflate your boat. Woof !! Wotta world, wotta world. Ciao. JWE



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (1/24/2015 7:55:37 PM)

Woof !! Lamb Chili. White beans, black beans, and some nice chili sauce. Onions, tomatoes, duh. Cumin, duh. Dried seeded Ancho and Pasilla chiles, and a skoosh of Guahillo; Into the coffee grinder and out comes perfection. Cook real long, on low heat; you want them flavors to combine into forever land.

Serve over basmati rice, with shredded green onions and cilantro as a garnish. Maybe a dollop of yogurt or sour cream as a topping. I had some left over tatziki that worked real well. Yum. JWE



US87891 -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (5/9/2015 7:10:40 PM)

Good, but Swedish meatballs. 1lb gr beef, 1/2lb pond gr pork. Sauteed onion, bread crumbs, egg, allspice/nutmeg, in a blender to make a glop. Combine glop with meat and mix by hand. Roll into teeny balls. Put on wire rack. Oven at 350 for 20 minutes.

In a big pan, render, ½ cup flour, 2 cups beef broth, ½ cup milk, allspice/nutmeg, salt/pepper; make egg noodles. Combine meatballs with sauce. Serve over, or with egg noodles.

John, I grant you make some tasty chili, but you are simply a Cali tyro [;)]. Remember you once came to College Station for a chili cook-off and I had to hit you with an epi pen [:D]? Ah, youth, it’s so wasted on the young[8D].



US87891 -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (5/16/2015 5:48:35 PM)

The strategic situation as of May 1942. Japan has the Bismarcks, New Britain, Solomons, Gilberts, and much of Papua.

The black arrows are the proposed air/supply bridge to Australia, formalized at the Washington Conference, Dec. 1941, modified by JCS #509, 9 March, ’42 and CCS #12, 17 March, ’42.

Japan, of course, knew nothing of this. But she did have an appreciation of what would happen if the Allies built up Australia as a staging base … so … the smart money was on an operation in the SW Pacific.

In Phase-1 there’s major operations against the Fijis and Samoas. There’s a secondary operation against Milne Bay. Phase-1a has operations against the Tongas.

In Phase-2, the survivors will contribute units to operations against the New Hebrides.

Phase-3 is the invasion of New Caledonia. You have all the initial units to play with (such as they are) and a new, fresh, division to play with.


[image]local://upfiles/37114/529BAA5E642749809A016F5856C11283.jpg[/image]



US87891 -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (5/26/2015 9:03:34 PM)

Japan OOB is finished, as is Allied. All we are doing now is supply allocation; Japanese special convoys to Manila, Palaus, etc.. Allied entry to San Diego. Production is off.
Using our paradigm for daily supply usage for a unit in "combat mode-quiet", "defensive mode", "offensive mode-bombard", "offensive mode-deliberate". So total it up and let the chips fall in the special convoys for Japan. Same with the Allies. They get a bigger lump sum, and on a more ongoing basis, but on the sharp edge, beans will be at a premium. Both sides will have to schlepp supply from disparate, far away ports. And there's not near enough high speed vessels to do it.

Matt



Symon -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (7/2/2015 9:25:59 PM)

We will no longer continue to support our scenarios on this forum.

We will continue on our private forum on our private server. Things we think appropriate we will post on the website, but will not discuss the details on this forum. You all know why. Just thank Hans Bolter and his weenie peenie nonsense and the useless pathetic crap he forces on other newbies that don't know just what a wet, smelly, douchebag he really is. Goodbye and good playing.



Mac Linehan -> RE: Operation SF Scenario (7/27/2015 3:00:51 AM)

Hi, John-

Just wanted to check in and say that I am looking forward to the release of Operation SF on the Babes site.

My sincere gratitude to the Babes Team for your historical research, effort and attention to detail. It is a real challenge to work within the confines of the historical goals, restrictions and resources available.

Mac




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