Winning as a Peaceful Species (Full Version)

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Euler -> Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 1:08:04 AM)

I have a strategy question and I would like to hear your ideas.

I find it hard to play this game as a peace loving race. Sooner or later, I have to expand or be crowded out by everyone else. I usually play from behind (me on Prewarp, rest on Starting) so the AIs get to all the colonizable worlds before I do. Then the only way to expand is to declare war. I have to expand to be able to keep up with the other players on victory conditions. This makes me even worse than a warfaring species, because I am a deceitful peace loving species that double crosses everyone to keep up.

I am just now playing as Wekkarus and the only way I can move up in the standings is to conquer my neighbors. It's frustrating.

Is there a way out of this dilemma? Or is every game ultimately about conquest?



Nanaki -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 1:43:04 AM)

It depends on weither you are pirate or empire.

Empires can play peaceful, however, giving the other AIs Starting tech level while you are on Prewarp, it is no wonder the AIs leave you in the dust. While the difference between prewarp and tech 1 are minimal in terms of warfare (only the shield generator makes an enormous difference), there is a huge difference in warp drive tech. Warp bubbles are next to useless, they are too slow and eat up too much energy, at best you can only visit the neighboring systems. It is not until you get Gainax where you will be able to effectively establish an interstellar empire, and the amount of RPs that Gainax requires are enormous. Tech 1 starts out with Gainax already researched so while you are struggling to get those initial warp techs, the AI will be colonizing the galaxy.

That warp drive advantage are the reason why pirates are so dangerous, even though they start off with no planets, cannot explore ruins, and have a hard time making any kind of income.

Overall, I feel that if you want to play peaceful, you should either push back the AI empires to Prewarp, or upgrade yourself to Tech 1. If you want replacement opposition, I highly recommend pirates.


Pirates, on the other hand, a peaceful pirate game is simply not possible. Empire AIs like to attack pirates, to even if you do play a pacifist game you will likely end up destroying a huge number of ships while trying to protect your stations. I have asked for improvements in pirate diplomacy to alleviate this so hopefully they might come down the road.



Euler -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 2:23:55 AM)

Thanks, I was speaking mainly about empires-I expect pirates to be bloody!

I hadn't realized that the warp tech disadvantage would be so harsh on peaceful civilizations. The game supports peaceful strategies, but they are based on getting ahead initially and then holding on with diplomacy, trade, tech, or espionage. If you don't get the initial stake of good territory, you have little choice but conquer the others.

With 75% of the victory conditions based on economy, population, and territory, it's hard to win without controlling the galaxy. However, these can be adjusted or turned off if they skew the game into too much of a land grab. But the default settings definitely encourage grabbing and conquering colonies and territory regardless of what species you choose.



Aeson -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 3:00:26 AM)

quote:

I hadn't realized that the warp tech disadvantage would be so harsh on peaceful civilizations.

The problem with the warp tech disadvantage is that it's a combination of a lot of disadvantages, all rolled up into one. First, you have the issue that the factions set to 'starting' have Gerax drives from game start, while you don't have any drives. This puts you behind by however long it takes you to get Warp Bubbles out. Then you have to tack on the issue of the basic Gerax drive being a little over six times faster than the Warp Bubble and requiring roughly half the power that the Warp Bubble does, which means you're roughly 12 times less fuel efficient, which severely restricts your range. Further compounding your range disadvantage, 'starting' tech level gives you basic Fission Reactors, which are more fuel-efficient and space-efficient than Basic Space Reactors, and Standard Fuel Cells, though neither of these matter nearly as much as the hyperdrive. A further disadvantage for pre-warp empires compared to starting empires is the lack of colonization technology, which would put you behind the others even if both you and your opponents started out with the same hyperdrives.

It probably wouldn't be as bad for you if you started with Warp Bubble Generators or if the starting factions had Warp Bubbles instead of Gerax drives. If you decide to try something like this out again for a peaceful expansion game, you might want to try using the editor at the start of the game to adjust the tech advantage that starting gave to your opponents, either by giving yourself Warp Bubbles or by taking the Gerax drive away from your competitors. You'll still be behind your opponents, but probably not by as much as you would have if they start with Gerax drives when you have nothing.



Euler -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 3:15:05 AM)

Thanks those are good observations!

It's pretty clear that with player on pre-warp and everyone else on starting is too disadvantaged unless you want a military climb-the-hill style game.

I used to play with everyone on pre-warp but I found the AI had trouble expanding out of its home system, and that made the game relatively easy to win purely by out-expanding everyone. That was a while ago, so maybe the AI has gotten better at the initial game-I should try again.

I have also played with everyone including me on starting and this seems to be pretty well balanced, but I do really like the idea of starting with nothing and building up from the pre-warp era.

Perhaps a better initial setting for a challenge would be player on starting and everyone else on young?



Aeson -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 3:50:11 AM)

quote:

Perhaps a better initial setting for a challenge would be player on starting and everyone else on young?

Could be, though I can't recall at the moment how much of an advantage 'young' has over 'starting.' I think it's only a couple of colonies, if you're only talking about the expansion slider and not the tech slider.

quote:

I used to play with everyone on pre-warp but I found the AI had trouble expanding out of its home system, and that made the game relatively easy to win purely by out-expanding everyone. That was a while ago, so maybe the AI has gotten better at the initial game-I should try again.

If you didn't find computer expansion on pre-warp starts acceptable before, I sincerely doubt you'll find it much improved, if at all, now. The computer factions have incredibly variable starts, insofar as how quickly they can get out of their home systems, to the point that you or a lucky computer empire could have 10 or 15 colonies before another faction even picks up its first warp tech. You might try setting up a pre-warp game and then running through the editor to make sure that everyone is granted warp tech at around the time you pick it up, or giving everyone warp tech at the beginning of the game, if you want a game where you start out with basically nothing (you can exclude yourself from the round of free hyperdrive unlocks at the beginning of the game if you want to start out disadvantaged; just remember that if you use the editor to play with tech levels, you have to do it on an empire-by-empire basis rather than a global setting, and you should also be aware that there's a button in the technology portion of the editor that lets you pick and choose techs from the tech tree rather than just setting the overall technology level).



Nanaki -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 6:27:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Euler

I used to play with everyone on pre-warp but I found the AI had trouble expanding out of its home system, and that made the game relatively easy to win purely by out-expanding everyone. That was a while ago, so maybe the AI has gotten better at the initial game-I should try again.


I donno if its the mod I made or the patch changes, but usually my AIs make it out of prewarp fairly well. Given there will be one or two sentients whom never leave their homeworld but for the most part most of them make it off.



Blackstork -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/20/2014 8:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euler

Thanks those are good observations!

It's pretty clear that with player on pre-warp and everyone else on starting is too disadvantaged unless you want a military climb-the-hill style game.

I used to play with everyone on pre-warp but I found the AI had trouble expanding out of its home system, and that made the game relatively easy to win purely by out-expanding everyone. That was a while ago, so maybe the AI has gotten better at the initial game-I should try again.

I have also played with everyone including me on starting and this seems to be pretty well balanced, but I do really like the idea of starting with nothing and building up from the pre-warp era.

Perhaps a better initial setting for a challenge would be player on starting and everyone else on young?


Try to play with Icemania AI mod or any mod which includes it. Its AI will make you tremble.
Also in my mod i ovrehauling character system, and there are sucesful peaceful empires which can play solely at peaceful way - for example Such-Oos which have huge diplomacy bonuses, and can manipulate with allies to protect them, while being themselves small snowball which economy can grow into monster so it wont afraid no one if given enough of time to grow, even being race with weakiest troops in the galaxy.



Euler -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/21/2014 9:19:20 PM)

Thanks Blackstork I am going to try your mod-it looks incredible!



Jethro420 -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/21/2014 9:43:44 PM)

Yep. Get the AI mod. It rawks!



Blackstork -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/21/2014 10:47:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euler

Thanks Blackstork I am going to try your mod-it looks incredible!



Thanks, try to play Such-Oos at first place (they are those peaceful race which call good bulky friends to fight for them, while being busy with trade and less mundane tasks than faring wars :P , and i will be providing charts and guides upon release, dont forget to check some of them, and great to see you on the train ! :P :)



CaptainBipto1 -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/22/2014 7:11:09 AM)

Smugglers are called the "most peaceful" and they are good if you can emphasize supplying empires. I run defend missions for income and because I should have security ships, so when idle they can earn. Other pirates are rivals for resource sources (and mess with your mining bases). I spam mining ships but the income can be either great or sporadically low.



Nanaki -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/22/2014 10:58:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptainBipto1

Smugglers are called the "most peaceful" and they are good if you can emphasize supplying empires. I run defend missions for income and because I should have security ships, so when idle they can earn. Other pirates are rivals for resource sources (and mess with your mining bases). I spam mining ships but the income can be either great or sporadically low.



Unfortunately empires like to eventually take potshots at smugglers by late game. I usually play smuggler and I end up with hundreds of ships destroyed due to empires sending suicide fleets at my well defended stations.



Etherhibba -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (5/13/2015 4:00:15 AM)

More than anything DW:U is a sandbox. Playing as a peaceful civ can be done depending on your race's victory conditions. Or, you could of course play with victory conditions off in sandbox mode and see how far galactic history runs with you shielding yourself from the terrible unknown.

TIP: For lots of extra fun, enable the story events and race-specific events. Fun times will be had, trust me.



Albatross -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (7/25/2015 2:40:47 PM)

I was playing a game as the Wekkarus to try to get some peaceful play in, and I had a big lead until the AI empires managed to pass me in economy size, population, and raw number of colonies. I'm not sure how my growth stagnated, but now I'm considering taking a big swing at a nearby empire whose relations with me have soured. Is this standard procedure for good-guy empires whose comparative advantage is waning?



RiftHick -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (7/25/2015 4:16:49 PM)

That would be more along the lines of a neutral/ aloof decision as you are potentially pre-empting a conflict in order to re-assert yourself as the dominant power (Yes I am aware that a war will no doubt occur anyway eventually as they likely covet your things). Regarding what happened my guess is that groups like the Teekans/Gizzies/Securans finally reached a point where their snowballing overtook you. All 3 of them (other races could be added to the list if you play with modded races) will reach higher populations than a Wekkarus player given enough time, more people means more funds, stronger population growth means easier colony growth and less "damage" from colony spamming on-top of their existing benefits. Some empires have an easier time incorporating/ assimilating other "annexed" or conquered species into their empires as well not to mention the further benefits they'd gain from doing so. If you really don't want to be the aggressor then just prepare ahead of time and when the war declarations are sent to you then kick things into gear and take new territories. If you don't mind aloof or pragmatic play then target who'ever you feel you need to (biggest threat, easiest target, best assimilation prospects...etc)



NephilimNexus -> RE: Winning as a Peaceful Species (8/13/2015 9:08:57 PM)

Peaceful is an ambiguous concept. Do you mean truly peaceful, being all Ghandi-like and harming no one, or peaceful as in "not wanting to dirty their own hands?"

Imagine a peaceful civilization with massive economic, diplomatic and trade bonuses. An empire who's superpower is having lots & lots of cash. And just yonder there is a Mercenary pirate faction that is constantly blowing the crap out of our peaceful empire's enemies. What fortuitous circumstance! Shame that those dastardly pirates blew up your precious mining station, good sir, but seeing that the space was now unoccupied I felt no reason not to put my own mining station there. Better luck next time? Why yes, they do seem remarkably well equipped, now that you mention it. I have no idea where they could have gotten that kind of weapons technology from.

Oh dear, you're declaring war on us? Have you met my large, reptilian friends, the Mog? No? Mog, boy, do come here for a second. Mog, be a good chap and rip this fellow's arms off, would you? That's a good fellow. Oh shame, it looks as if the Mog got angry and nuked your world off the map. Shame to see such a perfectly good planet go to waste, but luckily I just happened to have this colonization ship trailing just behind their attack fleet. Fancy that!



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