Operation Sealion viability (Full Version)

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YellowNo5 -> Operation Sealion viability (8/22/2014 6:39:56 PM)

Is there anyway to make Sealion work in this game? IT looks nearly impossible.



composer99 -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/22/2014 7:28:53 PM)

There are, as far as I can see, two primary ways of attempting a Sealion.

First, there is the "shoestring" Sealion, which is usually undertaken in the summer of 1940 (yes, while fighting in France!), and in response to a shortage of CW land units in the UK (especially in southern England), especially if the CW has moved its naval transport units and they are out of position to bring reinforcements back to the UK.

While this invasion is unlikely to result in the conquest of the UK, it can cripple CW production and hamper the Allied military build-up.

(I speak from bitter personal experience.)

The second is the prepared invasion, to be undertaken in the spring/summer of 1941 - maybe in fall 1940 if Germany blows bps on transports.

This is a much bigger affair, with Axis Marines and extra sealift units in the mix, possibly a supply unit.

I haven't personally seen a 1941 Sealion work, yet, but I believe there are accounts where it has.

Unrelated to the methods of Sealion, I should add that Sealion can work, as it were, even if the outcome isn't the conquest of the UK. If the invasion of the UK by the Axis results in both destroyed Allied matériel and economic damage (destroyed blue factories) sufficient to delay the Allied build-up and attacks in Italy and NW Europe by, say, at least 4 turns (thus wasting at least one summer campaign season), and does not also leave Germany vulnerable to the USSR, then it can be legitimately said to have worked.



Twisted1 -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/22/2014 8:22:53 PM)

I have not seen one on MWiF but in one of the Lines of Communication fanzine, there was one that was successful but the Axis still lost the war! This was from a convention of WiF.

I will try and find the article.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/22/2014 9:39:25 PM)

Usually only if the CW is underdefened for some reason. It doesn't even have to necessarily be because of bad play. You can see it a lot when the Axis run down to grab Gibraltar, the CW sends a bunch of land units to help the Spanish out, and they get trampled over, which leaves the Brits too weak to stop the units pouring in.

But yes, it's tough. If it's any consolation, a sealion is probably far too easy to pull off in WiF relative to the resources Germany had historically available.



warspite1 -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/22/2014 10:09:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Usually only if the CW is underdefened for some reason. It doesn't even have to necessarily be because of bad play. You can see it a lot when the Axis run down to grab Gibraltar, the CW sends a bunch of land units to help the Spanish out, and they get trampled over, which leaves the Brits too weak to stop the units pouring in.

But yes, it's tough. If it's any consolation, a sealion is probably far too easy to pull off in WiF relative to the resources Germany had historically available.
warspite1

I think WIF handles this brilliantly; Sealion in 1940/41 was an impossible dream, no chance, nada, Zip, zilch, nil etc. Therefore, and rightly so, it is anything but easy to achieve in WIF, but in line with ADG's superb game mechanics, it is not designed to be impossible in this game.



brian brian -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 3:18:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twisted1

I have not seen one on MWiF but in one of the Lines of Communication fanzine, there was one that was successful but the Axis still lost the war! This was from a convention of WiF.

I will try and find the article.



I watched that game from an adjacent table. The Japanese declared war on the Commonwealth in 1940 and the rout was on. The two Zero counters they get in 1940 can control any sea area where they are deployed, eventually dominating the North Sea, and the IJN early model carrier planes are pretty good as well. The UK Home Country surrendered but not before the remaining Royal Navy sailed to Canada en masse. The German advance in Russia peaked at about the historical December 41 line I believe….but the Axis was completely defeated by early 1945; Stilwell was used to take the Tokyo hex.

How did that happen? The super early US entry caused by the super aggressive Axis play sent US production to the stratosphere. By the end of the game they could throw an Offensive Chit every single impulse.


And I would add that all of the players were very, very good, and there didn't seem to be any examples of critical luck making any of this happen. It was a straight run-through of an early Japan DOW strategy and what happens within the game system when it is tried.



brian brian -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 3:24:01 AM)

The shoe-string surprise Sea Lion in 1940 is a fun game. Fleet Air Arm is still a weak concept for the Allies that year.

More prepared Sea Lion sometime after 1940 is a ho-hum slugfest on the ground, with results possibly turning on a few critical search die rolls in the North Sea. A smarter Axis uses the Bay of Biscay to get ashore in Ireland to attempt a serious assault on the UK economy by using land-based air in both zones approaching the UK, with plenty of SUBs. It can work, but the USA and USSR remain serious concerns for Germany even when they are relatively successful in England.

Overall though, most every player of the game is going to try it eventually as it is one of WWII's greatest What If? questions.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 3:40:24 AM)

The way to make Sealion work (in my opinion) is to give the Commonwealth too much to do. Threats to Gibraltar, Malta, and Egypt, plus a Sealion threat can cause the Commonwealth to be spread too thin to defend everything. Hammer any Commonwealth units that are in France and DOW Spain once France has fallen (or been Vichy'ed). Go for strategic bombing of factories in the UK. Put the Italians to work in the Med, including their fleet.

Once Paris is taken, the Commonwealth is pretty much on their own and if both Germany and Italy concentrate on taking the UK, they should have a shot. But this all means leaving the USSR alone, with just enough defensive units in the east to keep the Pact intact.

As for Axis builds, don't spend BPs to build all your armor and mechanized units. Focus on air, submarines, sea lift, and air transports. Marines and paratroops and HQs to reorganize units for a second bite at the apple (e.g., strategic bombing, naval actions). Count on using an O-chit for the invasion.

This is an all-or-nothing adventure. Being frugal with the German and Italian navy and air forces would be a bad idea.

But that's just me.[:)]

If the Commonwealth wants to defend the UK and short-change the resources it sends to the Med and France, then take Gibraltar and Suez. Let the Commonwealth units then sit on all their precious units in the UK, while the Axis conquers the rest of the world.



paulderynck -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 3:52:55 AM)

You also need supply units which can be ATR'd over as insurance against the turn the Kriegsmarine gets expelled from the sea lanes around the UK.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 7:03:12 AM)

quote:

against the turn the Kriegsmarine gets expelled from the sea lanes around the UK.


or simple count on supply units and don´t have the fleet a sea ..

supply units are cheaper then battleships.



Orm -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 7:07:17 AM)

Depending on options it can be enough just to have the air force out at sea to keep the troops supplied in UK.



Centuur -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 9:20:59 AM)

A Sea lion means often that the CW has made the wrong decisions regarding the build up of it's forces...

If the CW sticks on building infantry type units (including emptying the MIL pool), FTR, CVP, pilots and CP during 1939 and 1940 there should never be a shortage of units to defend the UK. If the CW starts building shiny new ships and all kind of "fun" stuff, than he might get into trouble...

Defense first, offense later. It's no use to build up the CW navy (except for the odd repairs), since the green guy has got far better ones. How many guys I've seen who start finishing those CW CV's and BB's somewhere in 1939 or 1940... You can still finish them in 1941 and they will be in time when the fun starts...




AllenK -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 9:38:28 AM)

The other way Sealion can 'work' is by not launching it but keeping It as a viable threat, at least in the shoestring form as a smash and grab raid. Forces the CW to maintain a decent garrison in the uk and much more of the RN in home waters. The weakened Med and Far East as a consequence help the Italians and Japanese. The cost to axis is not too great as units would be need to be on the coast anyway as garrison. If the CW get blasé and ignore the threat or (highly likely with me) get careless, then .....



michaelbaldur -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 12:57:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

The other way Sealion can 'work' is by not launching it but keeping It as a viable threat, at least in the shoestring form as a smash and grab raid. Forces the CW to maintain a decent garrison in the uk and much more of the RN in home waters. The weakened Med and Far East as a consequence help the Italians and Japanese. The cost to axis is not too great as units would be need to be on the coast anyway as garrison. If the CW get blasé and ignore the threat or (highly likely with me) get careless, then .....


just start and finish a few amph ... and keep a few units in attack locations... maybe just a few powerful/slow militia ...

that can make any CW player cautions



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 2:35:15 PM)

quote:

If the CW sticks on building infantry type units (including emptying the MIL pool), FTR, CVP, pilots and CP during 1939 and 1940 there should never be a shortage of units to defend the UK.



And I at least try to keep one blitz capable unit in the Home Island at all times, and since I like to ship my starting mech to Egypt, that means building a second one. Being able to force any invaders off into the Channel and kill them with an R result isn't only good defense, it's fun.



Centuur -> RE: Operation Sealion viability (8/23/2014 2:39:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

quote:

If the CW sticks on building infantry type units (including emptying the MIL pool), FTR, CVP, pilots and CP during 1939 and 1940 there should never be a shortage of units to defend the UK.



And I at least try to keep one blitz capable unit in the Home Island at all times, and since I like to ship my starting mech to Egypt, that means building a second one. Being able to force any invaders off into the Channel and kill them with an R result isn't only good defense, it's fun.


True. But I still think that unit needs to be build no earlier than end of 1940... A FTR3 is far more valuable IMHO...



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