German accuracy fix! (Full Version)

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toni112007 -> German accuracy fix! (8/26/2014 11:25:34 AM)

Hi all.

In one game i had 2 german flaks 88mm and they missed 3 times M4 Shermans before they got destroyed without killing any enemy. How is it possible to miss 3 times on only 300-400 meters? Germans never missed their shot!
Germans should have superior accuracy compared to US one!

I only like how Mg42 accuracy was improved from previous games that big +!



PipFromSlitherine -> RE: German accuracy fix! (8/26/2014 3:55:11 PM)

That's right! The Germans never missed. Why, it's how they won the war!!

[;)]

Cheers

Pip



PztCrackwise -> RE: German accuracy fix! (8/26/2014 4:06:30 PM)

The OP might have exagerated a bit regarding Germans having awesome accuracy in real life, however, this does not mean that the game has a realistic gun accuracy system.

As mentioned in other threads by a lot of people, the gameplay currently is very random and unrealistic due to the broken gun accuracy (both tanks and ATGs. This is like the biggest issue people have been criticising. Yet developers refuse to acknowledge it as bad design decision and do not plan on fixing it, claiming it is supposed to make game more forgiving and more fun.



TIK -> RE: German accuracy fix! (8/26/2014 6:23:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PztCrackwise

The OP might have exagerated a bit regarding Germans having awesome accuracy in real life, however, this does not mean that the game has a realistic gun accuracy system.

As mentioned in other threads by a lot of people, the gameplay currently is very random and unrealistic due to the broken gun accuracy (both tanks and ATGs. This is like the biggest issue people have been criticising. Yet developers refuse to acknowledge it as bad design decision and do not plan on fixing it, claiming it is supposed to make game more forgiving and more fun.



I agree, but I'd like to just point out that this is not the biggest issue people have been criticising. The AI is poor on the big maps and the 2D graphics (though good for 2D) are past their sell by date. Those two issues are what most people criticised at the release of GWTC, and are probably the reasons why there has been a decline in interest since release.

However, realistic gun accuracy is an issue that can be "fixed" pretty easily with a patch, if the rest of the community would prefer it. From my perspective, GWTC is a game, and for the purposes of gameplay the guns need to be a little more accurate. I don't want it to be absolutely 100% that a shell will hit a target, but I'd like it to be more than it is now.



toni112007 -> RE: German accuracy fix! (8/26/2014 8:48:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

That's right! The Germans never missed. Why, it's how they won the war!!



I don't want to argue but accuracy has nothing to do with german loss of war. They lost because they ran out of oil, supplies and were outnumbered. Outnumbering almost never happens in GWTC so Germans should have advantage there.





SteveMcClaire -> RE: German accuracy fix! (8/27/2014 6:09:34 PM)

Current accuracy of weapons in-game is the way the game was designed to work.

Players are welcome to mod the accuracy of the weapons and increase the base experience level of their teams if they wish. Both can be done by modding the game data files.

Steve



Longnez -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/6/2014 9:26:41 AM)

Surprising remark from a administrator who is supposed to, i think, to consider areas for improvement of a great game that lasts over time. I noticed myself the lack of velocity and historical accuracy of the legendary flak 88 mm. 2 direct hits out a Croccodile couldn't overcome him one, 88 mn is being bludgeoned immediately by mortars. I also found that 3 Panzer IV one next to the other, each with their goal scored at 75 mm on a croccodile, didn't come to destroy but were then destroyed all three. There is a lot of gap and i'm surprised that little hand make. The litany is too long and patches and mods are kept waiting in a time of scarcity;-)
quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

That's right! The Germans never missed. Why, it's how they won the war!!

[;)]

Cheers

Pip





Dowly -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/12/2014 3:06:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

Current accuracy of weapons in-game is the way the game was designed to work.

Players are welcome to mod the accuracy of the weapons and increase the base experience level of their teams if they wish. Both can be done by modding the game data files.

Steve


Hey, Steve

Can you answer one small question, how much does the base accuracy figure of a gun add up to the calculation? I see it is set as same for most allied and axis guns (384 IIRC)?

Much appreciated,
Dowly



SteveMcClaire -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/12/2014 4:47:55 PM)

Base accuracy is a significant part of the 'hit' calculations, but for a first shot at the ranges in the game it is usually not the most significant factor for tank / AT guns. Crew experience and suppression / stress (which is effected by team morale) is typically a larger factor. So for a higher first-shot hit chance you can mod team data to increase experience and/or morale.

Steve



Troger -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/14/2014 12:26:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Longnez

Surprising remark from a administrator who is supposed to, i think, to consider areas for improvement of a great game that lasts over time.
quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

That's right! The Germans never missed. Why, it's how they won the war!!

[;)]

Cheers

Pip





I agree Longnez, it is surprising behavior. I guess it's much easier to make some little quip than to actually make a game worth playing.



PipFromSlitherine -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/15/2014 1:24:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Troger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Longnez

Surprising remark from a administrator who is supposed to, i think, to consider areas for improvement of a great game that lasts over time.
quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

That's right! The Germans never missed. Why, it's how they won the war!!

[;)]

Cheers

Pip





I agree Longnez, it is surprising behavior. I guess it's much easier to make some little quip than to actually make a game worth playing.


It was a quip indeed - specifically to the direct quote that the Germans never missed, which is obviously incorrect. The game mechanics are worked exactly as intended, and Steve and Iain have gone into detail as to why and what the rationales are, as well as pointing out how people can tweak their versions should they desire. The myth of laser-accurate German armour just refuses to die though.

Cheers

Pip



Tejszd -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/15/2014 2:29:58 AM)

This person just happened to be playing as the Germans, thus they complained about German accuracy.

There are other threads that complain about all first shots regardless of the side. Kinda sad that Matrix decided to make CC more gamey by not having 1 shot kills as the only reason CC has stayed around all these years has been because many considered it a very realistic game or even a simulation.... [:(]

Hopefully this gamey trend doesn't continue with the new 3d version that is in the works....



SteveMcClaire -> RE: German accuracy fix! (9/15/2014 2:53:15 PM)

One shot kills have not been removed. They still happen fairly often. The incidence is just somewhat less than in previous versions of the game.

Steve



STIENER -> RE: German accuracy fix! (10/11/2014 2:43:34 PM)

i have to agree with Tejszd on this one.



toni112007 -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 2:42:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PztCrackwise

The OP might have exagerated a bit regarding Germans having awesome accuracy in real life



I am sorry if I necroing this thread but hit probability with 8.8 L56

100 meters - 100%
500 meters - 100%
1000 meters - 93%
1500 meters - 74%

In this game it feels more like this:

100 meters - 50%
500 meters - 40%
1000 meters - 30%

You can find this info in 8.8 cm Kwk 36 on wikipedia.

BTW Can anyone tell me how can i mod accuracy or has any modder made accuracy fix?



PipFromSlitherine -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 3:43:55 PM)

I'm far from an expert, but those would be the ballistic characteristics? They ignore any human factors, which are a major part of the CC combat model.

Cheers

Pip



STIENER -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 7:01:34 PM)

LOL......we have another player dissatisfied with not being able to hit the broad side of a barn and we still get the same reaction from matrix.
PIP.....by this time in normandy most german elite formations, which we are playing with here, were veterans. the 88 is a formidable weapon. renown for its accuracy and killing power. the veteran german gunners were very good at there trade of killing tanks etc. the stupid gunners were long dead by this time of the war. the germans stopped many large allied tank attacks in normandy with a line of 88 a/t and 88 flak guns in ambush.

were not asking for the world here, but again you guys just plain tell us your not going to fix or upgrade an issue we feel is not correct. gotta love that.



PipFromSlitherine -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 7:58:06 PM)

Changing game balance based on a very small number of vocal players is not a good way to do game development. I appreciate that this issue is something that a group here find frustrating, but the game is working as designed. Again, it is possible to mod the game to play as you desire. Yes, the same reaction - nothing has changed [:)]

I would also question your assertion that all the Axis troops in Normandy were elite veterans. Certainly some, perhaps many, were - but given the attrition on the Eastern Front many German units were under-strength and/or poorly manned. I don't want to get into an argument about Normandy force distributions, but the idea (again!) of ubermensh Axis gunners and equipment just doesn't match the observed facts.

Cheers

Pip



STIENER -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 8:58:35 PM)

thanks for the reply Pip.....yes we wont get into an argument about german troop quality in normandy BUT i dont no what history your reading about normandy but what im reading about the elite formations in the german army in normandy and other theaters, is that they were ubermensh axis gunners and had equipment to go with it. some may have been under strength, men wise, but they were not poorly manned.

cheers



SteveMcClaire -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 9:20:03 PM)

As Pip said, the game design team set the accuracy for weapons to behave the way they wanted.

If /you/ want more accurate weapons, the way to mod the files to get this has been discussed already (increase weapon accuracy, increase team experience and morale levels.)

Steve



PztCrackwise -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/27/2015 10:44:33 PM)

What I don't understand is, in the previous titles (those before PitF and GtC), nobody ever complained about the accuracy of tank guns or ATGs. They were just fine, better than what we have now.

As the saying goes: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!



toni112007 -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/28/2015 10:40:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Changing game balance based on a very small number of vocal players is not a good way to do game development.



Why not keep balance for multiplayer only? I want this game to be realistic or even a sim.
Weren't CC games supposed to be realistic and simulator? Balance is not realistic. War is never balanced. So I say keep balance for multiplayer and keep realism for singleplayer.



toni112007 -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/28/2015 10:43:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

I would also question your assertion that all the Axis troops in Normandy were elite veterans. Certainly some, perhaps many, were - but given the attrition on the Eastern Front many German units were under-strength and/or poorly manned. I don't want to get into an argument about Normandy force distributions, but the idea (again!) of ubermensh Axis gunners and equipment just doesn't match the observed facts.



Almost all German troops in Normandy were veterans from eastern front.



SteveMcClaire -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/29/2015 4:18:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: toni112007

Almost all German troops in Normandy were veterans from eastern front.


'Almost all' is an exaggeration. Some German troops in Normandy were veterans. Some had been guarding the French coast for years. Some were indifferent non-Germans in 'Ost' battalions. Some were Flak troops who had to be 'persuaded' to engage British tanks at gunpoint.

Steve



STIENER -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/30/2015 3:08:02 AM)

you have gone off on a tangent.

the BG's in GWTC are almost ALL Premier german divisions. they are veterans and should be treated in the game as such. some of these BG's may have been short of man power as stated above [ smaller squads] but they were not ever short of well trained fighting men and an esprit de corps that was second to none... and weapons to match.
if you want to have your few lower quality BG's miss evey shot thats fine. i could almost live with that, but not the veteran BG's.



STIENER -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/30/2015 3:12:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Changing game balance based on a very small number of vocal players is not a good way to do game development.

lets not change anything based on players you never hear from...that makes sense to me......REALLY?



toni112007 -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/30/2015 1:11:26 PM)

They just need to make new CCs more like old CCs.



Platoon_Michael -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/30/2015 8:27:30 PM)

Which forum is the most important forum?

This one?


Or the Steam forum?



PipFromSlitherine -> RE: German accuracy fix! (1/30/2015 9:05:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

Which forum is the most important forum?

This one?


Or the Steam forum?

I'm not sure what you are asking? We read and respond to posts in both [:)]

Cheers

Pip



zakblood -> RE: German accuracy fix! (2/4/2015 8:47:38 PM)

i was on the beta for this game, and tbh if you never have fired any sort of weapon in real life before of any size and calibre then it hard to express how small things make bigger differences, terrain,heat, humidity and the human factor, fatigue and war time / period, ammo used, date of it, age and conditions of ammo and gun all play a factor into the shot, an hit's v's one time kills is a totally different ball game, that also depends on target, shape, angle, distance, heat, distance to target, ammo used, amount of gun use, wear and tear, fixed or moving target or gun or both, time of day etc etc etc...

1 shot in a hundred if your lucky would be a kill shot, 1 in 10 maybe a hit, with only one out of that 10 even doing damage internally, so to recap 99% missed or didn't cause fatal damage, a hit that took off paint or bent metal was still classed a hit, but saying it did any real damage is another thing, look at kursk, biggest tank battle in history, now looked at in a different light with most tanks being in such a low state of repair that most tanks knocked out suffered with mechanical faults first, and wasn't took out only by enemy fire, a shot might have been the last nail in the coffin, but to say it was the killer blow only, without the terrain, battle use and other damage like poor repair, bad terrain and over use etc is another thing, more were took out by terrain, traps and mines than other tanks and guns...

then again who killed the most men in war, as it wasn't the bullet fired by any side, disease and starvation killed more, and more tank broke down than every got totally destroyed and got re used by all sides, when number used where mentioned in a book i read, it doubled the numbers that were ever built on paper, as so many got knocked out or captured more than once, but didn't get totally destroyed in all but a paper number or name....



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