OT: Independence (Full Version)

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Chris21wen -> OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:07:58 AM)

I woke up this morning and found I still lived in the same country by a vote majority of approx. 400,000 with a turnout approx. 85% (huge figure this turnout). Yippee!

I don't want this to go political but I have question is for the historians among you is:- How many other independence questions have ever been answered by a vote without resorting to violence?



Encircled -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:21:56 AM)

I woke up this morning still being English, those north of the border still being Scottish, but much more importantly, we are all still British.



wdolson -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:23:40 AM)

Just off the top of my head, there was Quebec, South Sudan, Serbia and Montenegro, apparently Venice voted to leave Italy back in March (though I didn't hear about it until today), and technically Crimea (though there have been some questions about authenticity). That has been the way these things have been done in the last couple of decades. There is talk of Belgium splitting and probably some other peoples want to break away around the world.

Bill



Oberst_Klink -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 8:12:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

I woke up this morning and found I still lived in the same country by a vote majority of approx. 400,000 with a turnout approx. 85% (huge figure this turnout). Yippee!

I don't want this to go political but I have question is for the historians among you is:- How many other independence questions have ever been answered by a vote without resorting to violence?

The mutual agreed splitting up of Czechoslovakia in the 90s would be a good example, Chris.

Klink, Oberst



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 8:57:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

How many other independence questions have ever been answered by a vote without resorting to violence?


Does divorce count?



Chris21wen -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 10:14:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

How many other independence questions have ever been answered by a vote without resorting to violence?


Does divorce count?




If it had gone the other way it might and it could have turned out very acrimonious, just like many a divorce[:)]



Endy -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 11:04:51 AM)

The funny thing for me was when I heard that the secession supporters wanted to declare Scotland as nuke free country and forbid it's usage or even storing on their territory (even as part of Nato etc.), even intending to put that into the new constitution. I don't know how real it'd be that the UK would share nukes with them but come on, to willingly resign from owning nukes is a level of naivety or misunderstanding of how the world works I can't even comprehend. You need only to look at the recent Ukraine case to see what a great deal they made giving away their part of ex-USSR nuclear arsenal for some guarantees for their territorial integrity. Look how that turned out...

Unless of course UK would not give them any nukes anyway so that was merely an empty declaration so that they could later say "meh, we didn't want them anyway" :)



Ormbane -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 11:10:17 AM)

I believe the question comes up from time to time in Puerto Rico. So far the majority have wanted to maintain the status quo rather than opt for statehood or independence.



pws1225 -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 11:48:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

How many other independence questions have ever been answered by a vote without resorting to violence?


Does divorce count?



[:D]




tocaff -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 12:49:40 PM)

Spain has a couple of regions that are restless and have been for some time.



dr.hal -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 1:41:10 PM)

Much like Russia and Ukraine I believe England would retain the Nukes and my understanding is that would be what Scotland would want as well. However it is arguable that if Ukraine had kept some of the Nukes, Russia might have tread more carefully over Crimea and eastern Ukraine.



dr.hal -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 1:53:04 PM)

Given separatist movements around the world in many countries such as Spain and the Basque region, if Scotland had voted yes it certainly would have set a precedent that would have sent shock waves around the world and made certain countries very very nervous. Although such moves must be done in accordance with the country's laws that are in force at the time to be seen as legitimate, even the "no" vote might ignite a fire in the minds of those wanting independence. There still could be a domino effect here (much like the revolutionary movement in Tunisia triggered the "Arab Spring") but the "no" vote will dampen that fever. Being Canadian by birth I still follow the movement in Quebec very closely and having graduated from the University of Aberdeen, I follow that movement very closely. To me, we live in very malleable times!



Lecivius -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 4:41:27 PM)

Another question, and one I can now ask without going into politics since the vote is in and the decision has been made, is has there ever been a break up where a portion of a country went it's own way and made a success of it? I'm not talking colonies that became there own countries, but actual schisms within a governmental body that turned out better than conditions were previous to the break up?

I can think of some similar schisms, but I would value your thoughts.



geofflambert -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 4:48:44 PM)

I think they should declare independence anyway, invade England, capture the Queen and the Bank of England then divvy everything up between them and Wales. [:'(]



mind_messing -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 5:13:14 PM)

I always find how differing opinions are regarding "being British" seems to depend mainly on what part of Britain you live in.



crsutton -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 5:54:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Another question, and one I can now ask without going into politics since the vote is in and the decision has been made, is has there ever been a break up where a portion of a country went it's own way and made a success of it? I'm not talking colonies that became there own countries, but actual schisms within a governmental body that turned out better than conditions were previous to the break up?

I can think of some similar schisms, but I would value your thoughts.



The Czech Republic comes to mind after separating from Slovakia. Don't know how Slovakia is doing.



warspite1 -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 6:06:43 PM)

There is a thread in the GD forum that has been running for a few days on the whole referendum thang if you are interested.



Symon -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 6:51:23 PM)

Pretty much what Bill says. It's nothing that sparks interest in the major countries, so places like the Balkans can do what they wish.

If 'states rights' and 'self determination' were truly determinative, the entire world would be very, very different. 300 years is not that long when one has the advantage of modern historical thought. Sykes-Picot: Babylon, Sumer, Assyria. Couldn't happen because of promises by major powers to the Hashemites during War-I. Not to mention that self determination is a worm that works within the arrogant little weasels that try it as a basis of policy.

Oh, gosh, oh, how we can work the necessaries. Oh, gosh, oh, how much we don't know jack-all about that whole frikkin region. And oh, gosh, oh, some stinking general thinks that some combat troops can get this done. Cannot believe how utterly stupid and incompetent our "Generals" are. They are nothing but political lick-spittle animals. But that's what you get with a military that has been sucked into the political realm. Sigh. Good luck getting a rational response from those idiots. Nothing but Obama with a huge chest full of fake medals and $5500 of gold braided hats and shoulder pads, and sleves, and collar crap, and silk stripes down the pants (Officers, General, class A, blue).

We are so utterly screwed. Oh, well, no one really cares do they? Ciao. JWE

BTW, was watching the Scottish vote. Didn't think they should break away. The secessionists are utter statists and Scotts would rue the day they went off by themselves, but hey, their choice. I believe in rational suicide. It improves the gene pool when the idiots actually do the deed. Good to see that most Scotts are are brighter than than that.



dr.hal -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:09:00 PM)

Many of my students, when asked what is the difference between "England", "Great Britain" and the "United Kingdom", they say that all three reference the same thing......Oh well.



warspite1 -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:19:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Many of my students, when asked what is the difference between "England", "Great Britain" and the "United Kingdom", they say that all three reference the same thing......Oh well.
warspite1

There are many in the UK that could not tell you the difference between the various geographic and political divisions [8|]



dr.hal -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:36:25 PM)

Really? Well if you are in a pub in Scotland watching a football match between England and some other country (IF the pub would allow its clientele to watch such a game) and happen to make negative remarks about those "British" football fans, you will be either dead or severely bruised within minutes.



LoBaron -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:48:44 PM)

Independent of what I personally think about the outcome of the vote - my sincere respect and cogratulations to the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom.

This must be an emotional topic for all of you. While I lack detailed knowledge how this critical decision and the path leading to it has been treated in your local rainbow press, from an outsider observing point of view the campaigns, as well as the vote and the reaction to the outcome, were impressively calm and considerate.

No dead bodies, no kids without parents, no bombs, no destroyed homes, no burnt bridges, no irrepairable insults besides the usual political babble. Nothing but some egoes hurt.

In the times we live in that day should stand as a leading example how such topics should be handled in the 21st century .´

Thank you for this!


[&o][&o][&o]



Lecivius -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 7:57:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Another question, and one I can now ask without going into politics since the vote is in and the decision has been made, is has there ever been a break up where a portion of a country went it's own way and made a success of it? I'm not talking colonies that became there own countries, but actual schisms within a governmental body that turned out better than conditions were previous to the break up?

I can think of some similar schisms, but I would value your thoughts.



The Czech Republic comes to mind after separating from Slovakia. Don't know how Slovakia is doing.


Good call! Slovakia is doing very well for themselves, at first glance. Thanks [;)]



warspite1 -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 8:13:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Really? Well if you are in a pub in Scotland watching a football match between England and some other country (IF the pub would allow its clientele to watch such a game) and happen to make negative remarks about those "British" football fans, you will be either dead or severely bruised within minutes.
warspite1

LOL I don't mean they don't know the difference between England and Scotland!

What I mean for example are things like:

- What countries makes up the British Isles? (Geographic)
- How many countries in Great Britain?
- What countries make up the United Kingdom?
- What is the status of the four Home Nation countries? E.g. Kingdom, Principality and Province.
-



Chris21wen -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 8:45:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Endy

The funny thing for me was when I heard that the secession supporters wanted to declare Scotland as nuke free country and forbid it's usage or even storing on their territory (even as part of Nato etc.), even intending to put that into the new constitution. I don't know how real it'd be that the UK would share nukes with them but come on, to willingly resign from owning nukes is a level of naivety or misunderstanding of how the world works I can't even comprehend. You need only to look at the recent Ukraine case to see what a great deal they made giving away their part of ex-USSR nuclear arsenal for some guarantees for their territorial integrity. Look how that turned out...

Unless of course UK would not give them any nukes anyway so that was merely an empty declaration so that they could later say "meh, we didn't want them anyway" :)



The main UK nuclear sub base is Faslane on the Gairloch. The US also had a Polaris base very close on the Holy Loch but that closed. (I looked it up 1961-1992). Both are classed as deep water lochs with easy access to the Atlantic. The geology of the area is also suitable for the storage of nuclear weapons (possible waste as well). Been a bone of contention for years with many a Scot (since 1961) and as to what would have happen had the vote been 'yes', I know not but it would have been acrimonious.



mind_messing -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 10:31:05 PM)

quote:

BTW, was watching the Scottish vote. Didn't think they should break away. The secessionists are utter statists and Scotts would rue the day they went off by themselves, but hey, their choice. I believe in rational suicide. It improves the gene pool when the idiots actually do the deed. Good to see that most Scotts are are brighter than than that.


I'm sure the Scots are better off without your insightful political commentary on the matter, that much is certain.

You may have disagreed with those wanting to change the political system in their country, but don't get the impression that it makes them idiots.

Someone having different views from you does not make them an idiot. That's a truth that you should remember when you're posting on this fourm - it might be a better place if you did.



warspite1 -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 10:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

BTW, was watching the Scottish vote. Didn't think they should break away. The secessionists are utter statists and Scotts would rue the day they went off by themselves, but hey, their choice. I believe in rational suicide. It improves the gene pool when the idiots actually do the deed. Good to see that most Scotts are are brighter than than that.


I'm sure the Scots are better off without your insightful political commentary on the matter, that much is certain.

You may have disagreed with those wanting to change the political system in their country, but don't get the impression that it makes them idiots.

Someone having different views from you does not make them an idiot. That's a truth that you should remember when you're posting on this fourm - it might be a better place if you did.
warspite1

+1 that was totally uncalled for.

Scotts - didn't they make Porridge Oats?



pontiouspilot -> RE: OT: Independence (9/19/2014 10:54:58 PM)

We have been through this BS with Quebec 2 times with a 3rd always threatened. Frankly it has been here used as a blackmail device for years. Most of us out west would pay them to go! I hope the Scots are able to extract as much for their "NO" .



geofflambert -> RE: OT: Independence (9/20/2014 2:00:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[

Scotts - didn't they make Porridge Oats?


They make Miracle-Gro



Jim D Burns -> RE: OT: Independence (9/20/2014 2:31:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Someone having different views from you does not make them an idiot.


Wasn't the entire effort to break away driven by the lefts anger over a conservative government in London? I could perhaps understand the Scotts wanting to break away due to national pride or heritage reasons, but being unwilling to live with election results strikes me as a little immature and given the damage it could potentially have caused the Scottish economy had the EU refused them entry, then it would have been a pretty dumb thing to do.

In a free society you spend your energy to change future elections by swaying those who disagree with you to your side. Throwing a tantrum and leaving that society is anything but an intelligent response.

I know very little about the political infighting that lead to the effort to break away, but one news commentator here in the US phrased it like this, “Scotts hate conservatives, in fact they hate them so much they want to leave the UK.” Obviously given the outcome of the election the commentator was speaking out of her ass, but the impression give to us in the US was the left was angry and they didn’t like the fact a conservative government was in power.

Jim




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