Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (Full Version)

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Endy -> Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/22/2014 4:26:22 PM)

While playing a PBEM me and my opponent noticed something strange. It seems that normal fighters (not nightfighters) have a lot of trouble hitting 4E bombers at night (despite being lit by multiple searchlights but let's say it's ok) but the bomber gunners seem to have absolutely no problems hitting fighters in the dark and cause a lot of casualties, similar to daylight conditions :)

Shouldn't the lower accuracy apply to both sides or am I missing something here?



Spidery -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/22/2014 4:45:43 PM)

This seems to be the case, particularly where the Japanese player uses day fighters at night with the same settings as they would during the day.

One approach that has been suggested is to put the day fighters on a low CAP % and set to an altitude below that expected for the bombers. This results in a small number of fighters against each strike. This seems to have the effect of degrading bomber accuracy while minimising losses for the fighters. Coupled with a substantial AA presence (say 60+ heavy AA), damage from the fighters can result in increased flak and ops losses for the bombers.

I'm not aware that anyone has performed systematic tests on the effectiveness of night bombing and different defenses against night bombing.



Lokasenna -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/22/2014 4:51:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery

This seems to be the case, particularly where the Japanese player uses day fighters at night with the same settings as they would during the day.

One approach that has been suggested is to put the day fighters on a low CAP % and set to an altitude below that expected for the bombers. This results in a small number of fighters against each strike. This seems to have the effect of degrading bomber accuracy while minimising losses for the fighters. Coupled with a substantial AA presence (say 60+ heavy AA), damage from the fighters can result in increased flak and ops losses for the bombers.

I'm not aware that anyone has performed systematic tests on the effectiveness of night bombing and different defenses against night bombing.



Interesting tactic.



Lowpe -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/22/2014 11:44:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Interesting tactic.


Hmm...[:D]



PaxMondo -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/23/2014 2:43:20 AM)

I haven't tried that, but I've done a lot of testing with NF's. A few things that I have learned:

1. Armor is a big deal. NF's seem to get hit a lot more than day time CAP. Armor along with DUR make a big difference between a damaged plane and lost one.
2. Gun direction makes no difference. Up, down, front, sideways, [;)] ... total guns matter, and against 4E's, minimum 12.5mm. 20mm though is a lot better. Most anything bigger just has such lousy accuracy (reflecting abysmal ROF) that I don't even count them. There are one or two exceptions, but only a couple.
3. Numbers matter. Having at least 1:1 matters. That's in the air, not total responding.
4. If your NF's aren't faster than the 4E's, they can't catch them. That means all the ones that launch after contact are just wasted supply. They'll never engage, but the combat report will show them as "part of the fight" ...




BattleMoose -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/23/2014 3:01:10 AM)

I'm the opponent in the engagement and the results surprised me too. Is there a historic basis for this? Bombers used were B17E/F and Liberators. CAP was substantial and A6M3a.

My biggest concern is exploiting a weakness in the game engine. Its a particularly relevant airfield at the moment that is being bombed. Flak is very limited with a very over-stacked airfield, can toss bombs out willy-nilly and they will land on something expensive. So I am very keen to continue bombing.

Do people have house rules to cover this sort of thing?



DanSez -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/23/2014 3:39:48 AM)

(HR limits on Night Bombers)
I've seen some proposed HRs limiting the size of total bombers in attack - usually with an expiration date on this limit.

***************
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2609058
4. NIGHT AIR ATTACKS
Restrict continuous night attacks or any night attack early in the war (until 1944?)
Not historical?
***************

Limits I've seen are between 25 to 50 aircraft.
Or by a set number of units (1 to 3 bomber units).

(edit for clarity)




Endy -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/23/2014 6:20:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

... NF's seem to get hit a lot more than day time CAP. ...



Exactly this part gets me wondering. By historical accounts 4E gunners were not very successful, even in huge formations in Europe, and most of their claims were proven false. The gunners could overclaim as high as 10:1 in some cases !

The thing is, even the limited success they had was during daylight. It's really difficult to image them hitting anything in the dark tbh, with searchlights around and flak bursting...

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't expect daytime fighters to have a huge success in the night against 4E but at the same time I'd expect them to take FEWER losses, and by a large margin, than during the day due to limited gunner visibility as well.

That's just me trying to put 2 and 2 together. Of course it seems the game shows very different results to what I'd expect so it got me wondering, like Battlemoose mentioned, if there is any historical basis to it or is it just very difficult to simulate and hence the seemingly strange results.



obvert -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/23/2014 6:24:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

I'm the opponent in the engagement and the results surprised me too. Is there a historic basis for this? Bombers used were B17E/F and Liberators. CAP was substantial and A6M3a.

My biggest concern is exploiting a weakness in the game engine. Its a particularly relevant airfield at the moment that is being bombed. Flak is very limited with a very over-stacked airfield, can toss bombs out willy-nilly and they will land on something expensive. So I am very keen to continue bombing.

Do people have house rules to cover this sort of thing?


Yeah, bombing any precise target at night wasn't reliably possible in the war, at least on a regular basis. There are of course massively planned exceptions like Peenemunde, and they still were not like bombing an airfield with planes scattered into defensive patterns all over the area, or a port with ships randomly placed at docks and in the harbor.

It works a bit too well in game and a lot of people have made HRs to reduce the number of planes flying to each specific target. The ops losses to difficult navigation are not well modeled and of course the defensive fire issue is a big one when they do get to target.

Have a look at the first ages of some AARs and see if you find HRs that seem workable for you.



Lowpe -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/23/2014 11:50:43 AM)

As it was explained to me, normal fighters get a heavy malus for fighting at night, whereas the defensive gunners on Allied bombers do not and fight really well leading to the phenomena of bomber sweeps at night -- designed to destroy fighters and not really deliver any bomb damage. This tactic pursued heavily can make every base untenable for Japan before the advent of real night fighters.

You need to buy out lots, and lots of AA and get them to the threatened bases. Fortunately they are cheap. Get those Independent AA units that have 10cm guns out first, and then AA Regiments with radar second, and don't overlook the machine cannons for bases with small air fields.

For those must defend bases, Spidery's tactic mentioned above works to blunt the attacks better than anything else I have found.

Or simply house rule it.



jmalter -> RE: Night time fighters vs bomber gunners (9/26/2014 3:32:08 AM)

I recall an HR where the # of bombers permitted to raid was based on the turn's %age moonlight. Don't recall whether that was a total for all night raids, or an allowed # for each target.



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