RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (Full Version)

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Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/18/2014 5:57:53 AM)

That is my lean. I was mostly curious what folks with more experience with the AV calculations thought might happen if he did go wild and take Tahiti, Pago Pago, Suva, etc.

I have slipped several SCTFs into the Noumea region from Oz (Asiatic Fleet survivors). They can make some noise, perhaps.




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/18/2014 10:27:02 PM)

I wanted to chime in at work and forgot my password. I think any sortie by US Cvs should be done with at least one operational seaplane base to use as a pivot area, an egress or at least some early warning from a 45^ vector as escape is the most important victory. I assume an oiler is a day away at flank as well. As far as the VP for AV in SoPac, I believe he would need to invest New Zealand and eastern Australia with little loss. What I think will happen, John will slooooowly break KB down into smaller TFs where he feels no threat of LBA. Here lies the rub.....

Maybe a noob move can work...drop those guys off in the southeast Pacific, let them build some forts. Show him some tankers off Wake. See if intel picks up something moving north, make mad dash for Tahiti. Your a vet, don't do a Zulu and play with one carrier for two years!

pss. I never thought of moving SAGs and disbanding them at nowhere islands and atolls, playing blind chess as it were. I think I could have done great harm to Paul this (my) game with the solid seaplane bases I maintained.


[image]local://upfiles/37319/1DF19DCA3AC64A448B19DCFAA9E8D3FB.jpg[/image]




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 2:18:44 AM)

It's a gamble if he finds you, but with the new map there are so many dots. It has allowed me to pop up out of nowhere a few times. One downside is you lose your TF commander.




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 10:15:18 AM)

Never thought of that, that should be patched. Should have to be a true base with support squads or HQ or something.




BBfanboy -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 3:59:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Never thought of that, that should be patched. Should have to be a true base with support squads or HQ or something.

Can't agree with that. There is a great picture of a US CA (Minneapolis?) with her bows blown off parked in the middle of nowhere to make temporary repairs. Ships can drop anchor nearly anywhere shallow enough. As Cribtop said, the trade-off is that they are sitting ducks if discovered.

[image]local://upfiles/35791/625EF694C5844589BC56EEAD707AD1FE.jpg[/image]




HansBolter -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 4:15:34 PM)

I too don't see it as something that should be "fixed".

It adds a bit of cat and mouse suspense to the game.

If one always keeps one's bombers on NAV attack, juicy targets in ports get overlooked.

A possible solution is to set the bombers with a primary mission of Port Bombing without a target and NAV attack as secondary mission.

That way if your search planes discover ships disbanded in port the tactical AI MAY choose to bomb them.

The drawback is that you will only get an afternoon NAV attack without a morning one if there are no in port ships to target.




Alfred -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 4:25:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Never thought of that, that should be patched. Should have to be a true base with support squads or HQ or something.


Problem with this is that it is fundamentally contrary to the game design philosophy. Dot bases with sea access do provide an anchorage. This was the case in real life and AE would be unrealistic if "anchoring" (which in game terms = disbanded) were not allowed.

Besides there are other disadvantages associated with what Cribtop is doing. But like everything, a theoretical disadvantage has no impact if not exploited by the opponent. Cribtop is disbanding at ungarrisoned dot bases. His opponent could recon the dot bases with access to the sea and para drop on them. There would then be a serious risk of losing, due to auto scuttling, some of the disbanded Allied ships when the base changes hands. Or his opponent could send a naval bombardment TF to shoot up the sitting ducks.

As I always say, there is always a counter to every move. The strong players know that and adjust their play accordingly. The weak players just complain and demand that someone (= the devs) solve their problem. Cribtop is a strong enough player to understand the strength and weakness of his tactics.

Alfred




witpqs -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 6:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I too don't see it as something that should be "fixed".

It adds a bit of cat and mouse suspense to the game.

If one always keeps one's bombers on NAV attack, juicy targets in ports get overlooked.

A possible solution is to set the bombers with a primary mission of Port Bombing without a target and NAV attack as secondary mission.

That way if your search planes discover ships disbanded in port the tactical AI MAY choose to bomb them.

The drawback is that you will only get an afternoon NAV attack without a morning one if there are no in port ships to target.

IIRC Nav attack can only be done as a primary mission, but doing that with Port Attack as secondary should accomplish what you want quite well.




HansBolter -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 6:29:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I too don't see it as something that should be "fixed".

It adds a bit of cat and mouse suspense to the game.

If one always keeps one's bombers on NAV attack, juicy targets in ports get overlooked.

A possible solution is to set the bombers with a primary mission of Port Bombing without a target and NAV attack as secondary mission.

That way if your search planes discover ships disbanded in port the tactical AI MAY choose to bomb them.

The drawback is that you will only get an afternoon NAV attack without a morning one if there are no in port ships to target.

IIRC Nav attack can only be done as a primary mission, but doing that with Port Attack as secondary should accomplish what you want quite well.


Thanks for the correction. I'm at work and not in front of the game. I was wondering after I posted if I made a mistake assuming that NAV search would uncover ships disbanded into port or if that can only be done with recon.




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 9:01:32 PM)

Yes, I wondered myself whether there was an issue with the tactic before I employed it as I try to stay somewhat on the realistic side. It was many of the actions around Guadalcanal that convinced me that it was kosher. To me the key is "can the tactic be countered?" The answer is certainly "yes." John could para drop, recon and search to reveal the ships and then nav/port, port attack or even bombard them. I am gambling he won't take the time to do so for every little dot. So far it's working pretty well.




paullus99 -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 9:10:38 PM)

Given John's propensity to stack the deck entirely in the Japanese favor.....anything you can do to fight back is kosher in my book.




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 10:01:58 PM)

Indeed, Paullus. It is precisely the Japanese advantages in BTS that made we want to try the Allies. I'm an odd duck who wants the challenge!

Banzai! Err, Hooray! [:D]

From a long term perspective, I know I just need to weather the storm. John brings a lot of naval attacks, but the key bastions are fully defended now (Karachi/Bombay, Sydney/Melbourne, CONUS/Pearl Harbor), so we basically wait him out and then counter-attack.

PS - Owe you guys a real update but FYI the enemy CVLs finally moved away from Tahiti today. We will cautiously move to reinforce but without the USN CVs.




witpqs -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 11:18:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
I'm at work and not in front of the game. I was wondering after I posted if I made a mistake assuming that NAV search would uncover ships disbanded into port or if that can only be done with recon.

I think it can, if I'm correctly remembering results of naval search in my game. But it's pretty clear that specific recon of the base is more effective at showing ships in port.




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 11:24:14 PM)

It's not the disbanding part it's the lose the TF leader.

ps As a matter of fact, some of the most interesting pictures I've uncovered reveal ships and barges with netting "hiding" from recon/air attack. It just does not seem right to lose the TF Co one has judiciously selected for the mission while on the mission.




witpqs -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/19/2014 11:30:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

It's not the disbanding part it's the lose the TF leader.

ps As a matter of fact, some of the most interesting pictures I've uncovered reveal ships and barges with netting "hiding" from recon/air attack. It just does not seem right to lose the TF Co one has judiciously selected for the mission while on the mission.

I hate the way you have to pay for the CO over and over again if a TF is 'disbanded', even if you only are anchoring the TF but still have it administratively (in your mind) in existence and awaiting further action.




ny59giants -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/20/2014 1:18:00 AM)

quote:

Given John's propensity to stack the deck entirely in the Japanese favor.....anything you can do to fight back is kosher in my book.


I've worked hand and hand with John in development of the three mods - RA, Treaty, and BTS (Between The Storms). RA is probably the one that could be considered more Japanese friendly as it is a 'what if' concerning the IJN. BTS takes the other two and merges them. Japan has an edge here, but not as much as historical as Cribtop can attest to.




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/20/2014 3:17:45 AM)

I would concur. RA gives a lot of IJN toys and a few to the Allies. In BTS, the Allies get enough new toys that things are more interesting and more balanced.




Bif1961 -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/21/2014 10:26:38 PM)

If I may chime in on the question of the historic accuracy of disbanding naval surface forces in dot hexes to "hide them." Though the tactic doesn't seem to be as wide spread in WWII it was employed by WWI commerce raiders, either on solo missions, Emden in Afirca, or the German East Asian Cruiser Squandron, both used rivers or isolated anchorages, which would be dots in this game to affect minor repairs, meet with suply vessels and replenish water. Knowing a tactic was being employed generates a series of counter-measures to include coastwatchers, radio interecpting and increase use of search planes.




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/23/2014 2:01:11 AM)

....update?




Bif1961 -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/25/2014 1:50:18 PM)

Must be a festivus break, with the airing of grievances and feats of stregnth.[:D]




HansBolter -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (12/31/2014 10:52:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


I wonder if the cargo capacity on Surcouf occupies the aircraft hangar? Let us know if/when you get a seaplane for it. I don't think it would be inappropriate to PM John III about what kind of aircraft to look for.



Nope. I finally got a float plane aboard. An Albatross no less and Surcouf still has 274 cargo capacity with the Albatross stuffed into the hanger.

I was doing some reading on it and it had a capacity to hold 30 prisoners in restraints.

They also planned three of them but canceled the latter two after one of the Naval Treaties forbid more than a single super sub.

Now we need to convince John 3rd to give us the other two!

Correction: That was a Walrus FP I put aboard.




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/1/2015 4:25:39 PM)

............................update?




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/20/2015 7:48:23 PM)

January 1942

Hello? Is this thing still on? Many apologies to you all for my long absence from the boards. I had a lot of family stuff around the holidays sandwiched between two big work deadlines, one before Christmas, one after. However, the main detriment to posting has simply been the challenge of keeping up with two simultaneous games. I’ve never done that before, and it’s taking some getting used to, but it’s very important for my continued participation in this wonderful game. Why? By nature I’m a perfectionist type player, quite capable of spending 3 hours on a single turn even when I don’t have a big Op going. I’ve read of other players flipping seven turns in a day with amazement. I took two games on purpose, knowing that if I can’t force myself to move through a turn faster, I simply won’t have the time to play anymore. It’s been very difficult to keep up, but in both games I’ve gone in deep enough that I know mostly where things are and I’m starting to feel more confident making thing go a bit faster.

So, with all that, let’s catch up the happenings during January 1942, which John and I have just wrapped up.

NOPAC

As you may recall, we just missed swiping the invasion force heading for Umnak and Dutch Harbor, then were kept at bay by an IJN light carrier. Dutch Harbor fell after a short fight before we could reinforce it (again due to the air threat). Thus, we built up Kodiak and Anchorage and brought together all the 11th Air Force (2 Fighter and 4 bomber squadrons) plus a unit of Canadian P-40s. The region is reasonably secure and we hope to initiate an air campaign against the newly conquered Japanese bases soon. Counteroffensive action other than naval and air stuff will have to wait, however.

CENTPAC

The enemy has secured the Line Islands, Canton, Baker and Midway. In past games where Japan does this it has been difficult for the Allies to retake the Line Islands and generate a direct move on the Marshalls. We have focused on securing Johnston Island with two Marine Defense Battalions, a base force and a combat engineer unit. Subs and Cats provide some early warning and minimal naval defense. We currently are putting out a picket line to screen a cruiser force that will bombard Midway. John likes to use Midway as a sub base and we hope to catch a few in the barn.

SOPAC

A real mess here. John had what appeared to be a CVL group and several powerful surface groups running around looking for prey. I hid the French ships and the 3 President class APs in dot bases while QE with elements of a Marine regiment loitered to the East. After two days of no sightings, I tried to have the APs flee to Panama and to slip QE into Tahiti. Disaster struck and John returned with KB-1, KB-2 and several surface units, sinking the APs (ugh – hate that they start in SOPAC) and slowly finishing off QE and her Marine cargo despite several heroic escapes from surface combat. Losing that ship and those troops was a black day and a testament to a truly dumb move on my part. Still getting used to being Allies – it’s easy to say “I can’t impose air or sea superiority anywhere Japan chooses to concentrate,” but it’s hard to really alter your moves until the cold reality is brought home to you. Lesson learned.

On the bright side, the French cruiser squadron escaped and the other SOPAC merchant ships waited until the IJN was gone and slipped to New Zealand by using the southern map edge.

Japan has moved to seize Penryhn and an island near Suva (Hoorne Island or something similar) but no moves on Fiji proper or Pago Pago yet.

John tried a quickie invasion of Tahiti with a small SNLF unit but the heroic resistance of the local base force’s cooks and signals troops have turned him back. He can get Tahiti if he wants it but we plan to slip in a few small Aussie commando units by FT TF (using converted Clemsons) to ensure the SNLF at least won’t be enough.

No moves against Nomea or the New Hebrides other than a large surface force that tangled with an Allied SCTF based around Canberra, Chicago and Houston. We intercepted in the hope we were hitting a big FT TF but no such luck. Canberra and two Clemsons were lost in exchange for significant damage to several IJN CLs and CAs, on the whole a Japanese tactical victory. The survivors are repairing at Sydney. Boise and Dallas lie in wait near Efate in case John returns.

SWPAC

The bastions at Sydney and Melbourne are as secure as possible. All the troops we can muster plus a large polyglot air force at Melbourne. Force Z and a Dutch cruiser force are near Brisbane waiting to contest an invasion if Oz is the main target.

Operation Southern Lifeline. The probable fall of Tahiti brings into play the question of how to supply Australia. We’ve ordered a large number of fast xAKs and TKs to make for Cape Town. They will be joined by the CAVs and BB Warspite (recently repaired in Washington) to serve as escorts. The idea is to secure the convoy against any threat short of KB. To protect against KB, we will use a robust line of picket subs and ships watching the approaches to the convoy route’s Australian terminus. There is some risk, and we considered a larger number of smaller convoys, but when you consider the length of the route and the logistical needs of Oz, we’d have a sea lane full of small, easily destroyed targets. Better to go with a big, well escorted convoy and have the pickets give plenty of warning if KB noses about.

Rabaul, the Solomons, Milne Bay, Lae and Port Moresby have all fallen as expected. John seized Horn Island and landed what appears to be a division at Normanton, supported by a small unit capturing Portland Roads in far NE Oz. Whether this move is a feint or the big move is yet to be determined, but I lean toward the former. IMHO John is either feinting here before a big move elsewhere or he is trying to suck troops up to NE Oz before jumping in to the south near Brisbane. I actually hope he’s coming hard for Oz as we are fully prepared defensively here and won’t be moved out of the bastions.

ABDA

Singapore got to forts 3 and that, combined with some good die rolls, saw the base hold out until the 30th. A very nice result and John is a little frustrated at it as he did nothing wrong but got delayed by 2 weeks in his timetable per his e-mails. Another bonus was that the initial shock attack on the crossing and two further SAs he attempted trying to finish the base caused pretty heavy casualties in the assaulting divisions. Hopefully that throws a monkey wrench into his plans as well.

Where will he go? He claims his SOPAC adventures are opportunistic, and evidence seems to support that. So, Oz or India? We’ve had almost zero SigInt to help out other than two pings that 12th Division (I think) is prepping for Vizgapatnum. While that screams India, it’s one data point and I think the division involved is restricted. Time will tell.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the enemy pushed on from Palembang and Sinkawang (captured very early) to invade Java at Semarang. The Dutch navy was out of position after intercepts near Kendari and the PTs boats had no luck. Mines and subs claimed (we believe) two enemy transports. We had fantastic luck with the crappy Dutch bombers, nailing 3-5 transports and a big fat tanker before overwhelming Japanese air power closed us down.

Burma

We ran away, halting at Kalemyo and Imphal. Irritatingly, John hasn’t moved past Toungoo so we keep getting low garrison VP losses at Magwe, Mandalay, etc. I’m going to fly in some trash to keep this from happening but really would prefer that the enemy just take these empty bases. Is this slow play in Burma a feint that also points to India? Maybe. John doesn’t seem to like going for India other than Calcutta but perhaps he wants to try something different. At this point I’m going to cease reporting on Burma and roll it into the India AO.

India

Karachi is a solid bastion already and building daily. Bombay is coming together as a secondary fortress. Otherwise all quiet for now.

China

Enemy attacks along the road to Sian and trying to eliminate the Lusu War Area have generally led to frustration for Japan. However, John is mounting a big push in the north, taking Yenan despite stout resistance at the base and in the nearby 3X hex on the approach. He took Loyang and Chengchow against token resistance and also took a more heavily defended Tsiatoso (sp?). He is trying to flank the defenses based on the nearby mountain hex and get to Sian from the East. We are moving reserves to the region but have some concerns they won’t arrive in time.




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/20/2015 8:52:33 PM)

#$%@!!!! I gave up and starting reading JOhn's, 64 posts worth. Can't comment on the IJA, never played them, can't comment here, know to much, or little.[:D]




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/20/2015 9:37:18 PM)

Sorry about that, Zuluhour. You're welcome to stay on, of course. Always fun seeing both sides.




BBfanboy -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/21/2015 3:51:14 PM)

I have been waiting for your AAR posts to return - I know RL gets in the way sometimes so I was not pestering you for a post.

I still think John is recklessly aggressive and at some point it will get him in trouble. He surprised you and made a strike that was painful for you, but nothing that will affect you strategically in the long run. Just keep gathering your strength and building bases until you are ready to go head to head on his overextended empire.




Cribtop -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/21/2015 5:03:04 PM)

Yeah, the QE thing falls mostly under the file of "figure out you are Allies and that KB is nasty," but the world is far from ended.

I basically stuck to the plan of using expendable stuff to contest him early and keep him honest while the real action was in building up the bastions in India, Oz and CONUS/Pearl. Whatever path John chooses, I don't think he will be able to take one of the bastions. Then it becomes an effort to do enough (or avoid doing too much) to avoid 1943 auto victory and beginning the counter-offensive. Patience is the watchword.

It will be interesting to see where he goes. The latest replay had some interesting hints that it may indeed be Oz, but nothing definitive. Basically coast watchers spotted an AO at Horn Island and we got Sigint of something big NW of the Broome area. Both these moves could just be securing a perimeter including the takeable bits of Australia, however.

Also, thanks for the kind words on the AAR!




witpqs -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (1/21/2015 6:24:46 PM)

That's the spirit!




zuluhour -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (3/8/2015 1:30:44 PM)

I am under similar pressure and understand the lack of posts. This part of the war is difficult. I am about the same time frame and am worried I have not dissected his intentions
properly yet.




SierraJuliet -> RE: The Arsenal of Idiocracy - Cribtop (A) vs John 3rd (J) - BTS Mod (3/8/2015 1:47:11 PM)

Don't worry. Real life first and then this gigantic make believe world.




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