Ship Design is tedious! (Full Version)

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manueldrews -> Ship Design is tedious! (11/16/2014 2:10:36 PM)

Hi all!

I just started playing Distant Worlds 2 weeks ago, watched several Lets Plays
of Larry Monte and DAS, and after 15 hours i am enjoying this Game very much [:)]

Unfortunately i cant wrap my head around the ship design automation in this Game.
I started playing with all controls set to manual in order to learn the Game properly
and step by step. I always start the Game in PreWarp and upgrade my ship designs
and after that retrofit everything. After several Game years my Fleet is getting bigger
and now my enjoyment of the Game is slowly decreasing because it is too tedious and confusing
to upgrade and retrofit every little piece of my growing millitary machine - especially when approx. every 10 Minutes there is a new component i have to add to my design. I already slowed down Research in the Game by doubling Research Costs at the Setup of the Game - but nevertheless there is too much returning to the ship designer and not actually playing the Game - at least what i understand in playing - and thats not 90 % of the Game time adding one component to every design i have and then manually order every ship to the Space Port for retrofitting [>:]

I know that it is possible to automate everything - especially ship design. I tested this
but i was dissapointed because the AI build so much ships that my cashflow went very fast
into the red - so i turned that off again. I saw that i got more control over my expenses by doing this myself - but with all the bunch of problems i mentioned.

Now i stand a little bit in the land of nowhere ... turning off ship design completely makes sense at the beginning of the game ... because i have an overview over everything. But after i research Hyperdrive than the complexity spiral turns up and my fleet is getting too big to manage (in Design and Retrofit terms). But if i turn automation on the AI buys too much ships and my cashflow is rapidly decreasing.

Which options do i have?

Is it possible to adjust or tell the AI how much ships it should build and when to retrofit? Honestly i really dont grasp the whole ship design automation menu and thats after 15 hours of play.

For example what exactly means "Manually upgrade the Design"? And why does the AI not retrofit
my ships, when i manually design them and adjust "Automatic" in the Retrofit Tab of the Ship Design Menu ... i tried that and my ships did not move to my Space Station for retrofitting.

Maybe there is some Distant Worlds Guru in the Outer Space of this Forum who can help me? [&o]

I would be so glad if i could enjoy this Game a lot more ... at the moment this whole "PAUSE, UPGRADE, RETROFIT FOR EVERY SHIP" - thing hinders the enjoyment of all the other Facettes of the Game - which is very sad

I appreciate every help! [:)]

Greetings!



Bingeling -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/16/2014 4:46:15 PM)

I am confused, which could hint at the post being somewhat confused :)

You seem to mix a few things.

Ship design, telling what components to use. I find this tiresome. Using the AI improvement mod makes the AI designs (your own and those of your enemies) much more efficient. I usually automate it with some exceptions.

You can tell the AI designer to lay off some specific classes in the Policy window (there is a list with check boxes for each class). For instance you can happily spend your time on cruisers designs, have the AI stay off them, but the AI designs the rest of the stuff.

Then there is the construction AI. It orders ships and bases. This is a separate thing, and I never turn this on. There are some settings for it in the empire policy screen.

The retrofitting of ships and fleets is governed by the construction AI. If you have construction on "suggest", you will see prompts to retrofit when new stuff is available. I rarely find it a good idea to retrofit everything at once. You can retrofit on a ship by ship or fleet basis, or do some multi selections to retrofit from the ship list.

And each of these AI settings are chosen individually.

An explanation about the design questions that I spot:

A design that is built can never be changed (apart from the behaviors in the top left). If you want to upgrade it, you got two choices:

Automatically upgrade the design: The AI swaps components after its logic. For instance equipping the new weapon researched. The old design is made obsolete.

Manually upgrade the design: This copies the design, adds Mk1 (and counting) after the name, which allows you to make the changes you feel. It also makes the old design obsolete (meaning it will not be built anymore).

The "automatic" and "retrofit" choice in the ship design screen is for special purposes. You turn upgrade off for special designs that you do not want the AI to mess with, even if it mess with all the other designs. Turning retrofit means the ships of the design will not retrofit unless you make some special orders for it. For instance if you got a special cruiser in addition to the AI cruisers. You turn "upgrade" on the design off to have the AI designer stay away, and you turn "retrofit" off to avoid your special cruisers to be retrofitted to normal cruisers if they are in a fleet told to retrofit.

You seem like you may want to turn construction AI off or to suggest, have ship design automated, and make a few specials designs that you have "as your own" where you put upgrade and possibly retrofit off. If you want to do all the cruiser designs manually, uncheck cruisers from the list in the policy window, and you won't have to mess with the retrofit and upgrade options. You will also not get any AI cruiser designs.



Cauldyth -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/16/2014 5:10:49 PM)

Yeah, here's how I have my settings:
    * Automate ship design (though I occasionally design a one-off ship myself here and there).
    * Let the automation suggest what to build, allowing me to ignore or modify their suggestions as needed.
    * Let the automation suggest retrofitting, to which I usually agree.
    * At various times I will go into the Empire Settings and turn auto-designing of various ship types. I typically do this with Explorers early in the game. I want to click the big "Retrofit Everything!" button, but I don't want my explorers constantly returning home to retrofit. I want them out there exploring, even if they're getting obsolete.



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/16/2014 9:57:02 PM)

I think the ONLY designs I use as is are the Mining Ships, everything else I design cold, or modify the default.
Explorers, Freighters. Passenger, Troop Transports - Custom
All Military ships - Custom
Stations and Bases - Custom

I sometimes let it suggest Retrofitting, but the rest stays off.



feygan -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/17/2014 8:56:44 AM)

Sounds like the issue is more how you do your ship design than the actual mechanics of it. If you feel a need to make design changes each and every time a new component comes out then you will simply never be happy. You have already stated how the auto design feature does not fit well for you. The major aspect of any 4x game is ship design, it is and always has been a balancing act of having big shiny pew pew ships flying around, and making choices on when to update with sometimes vast technology trees.

It is far better to have a form of design doctrine where you upgrade ships based on certain thresholds, rather than simply because the crew now can have ipads in their quarters. This could be something as simple as only doing an upgrade once you have gone through a whole tech level, to things like every time you break through a shield level. If you are absolutely fixed on the idea of having to upgrade for every component advancement then you will just never enjoy this game.



Cauldyth -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/17/2014 3:05:00 PM)

This is why, if I'm under pressure, I often go for the "Improvements to XXXXX" techs for ship components, even though they're often dead-ends and in the long run I'd be better off going for a whole new component. Those "Improvement" techs increase the stats of the existing components in-place, no retrofit required.



Xyrael -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/17/2014 9:19:57 PM)

Clicking the automatically upgrade ship, the one where the AI changes out obsolete modules for you, can be a terrible idea if your ships are pushing the size limit - having to go dig them up when they're not visible because they're too large to be built can be a pain. I find upgrading ships to generally only be useful when 1. I desperately need a new tech, like hyperdrives or new reactors 2. I am preparing for a war 3. My economy is degrading because of outdated freighters. I try to keep defensive bases and small spaceports near potential hotspots fully upgraded with defensive gear.

Otherwise, I tend to wait multiple techs to upgrade ships. I also try to keep design philosophies for each ship class. Escorts are small, weak swarms, Frigates might be close range brawlers, Destroyers might be long range skirmishers, Cruisers might be jack-of-all-trades or bring more sophisticated equipment like hyperdrive inhibitors. Focusing on certain tech, like only missiles for long range kiters, means you don't need to upgrade every ship you have.

An issue I imagine you're having is that all your ship classes push the limit with ship size. This is something you should avoid if you want to keep cost down, just because you're frigate CAN be size 600 doesn't mean that it should be. Having more smaller ships let's you cover more ground and protect your traders etc. As long as your ship is fulfilling the role you imagine it in, there's no reason to upgrade it or add more components. I'd consider upgrading freighters manually, as you can't really control how many of those are built, but don't go overboard and bankrupt your private economy.

So, before you upgrade that ship because you developed iGun 6, remember Stalin's quote: "Quantity is a quality all its own." Sometimes you're better off with more outdated ships than fewer shiny ones.



NephilimNexus -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/25/2014 7:06:55 AM)

No offense, but if you don't enjoy designing your own ships then this game won't be much fun for you.

Although I will take this thread to say that making crew quarters and life support separate components is silly, considering that they're the same slot in the tech tree and are both required in equal amounts without exception.



Bingeling -> RE: Ship Design is tedious! (11/25/2014 11:04:53 AM)

No offense, but I have enjoyed this game since vanilla, and have never had any interest in ship design.

It has not stopped me from doing some one-off designs, though. Like a star base for colonies, a scanning explorer... Or tried doing manual ship designs all around and given up due to clunky interface.



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