Great game but struggling here (Full Version)

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RogerJNeilson -> Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 11:58:03 AM)

I am delighted by the way the game plays, but frankly have little or no clue about what the different units/ vehicles/ components are and what they should do.

Obviously I need to do a crash course in this, any advice as to a good source for seeing the different vehicles and what they were armed with and their function?

I know I can see them as they are fighting, but frankly I'm too focused on saving some of my stuff to do detailed research as the shot flies.

Roger



Mad Russian -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:24:54 PM)

Here is the basic crash course difference between WWII and FPC's representation of WWIII.

1. Combat is at a much faster pace.
2. Combat is bloodier.
3. Combat takes place at longer range.
4. Movement and combat takes place 24 hours a day.
5. Artillery is at least as deadly as it was in WWII and it hits you more often.
6. Tanks will lead assaults not wait for the infantry to create holes for them to drive through.
7. Primary tank killers are antitank guided missile(ATGM) armed units. Cannon armed units(tanks) are secondary to those.

Rule of thumb for when you are engaging equipment you don't already know about is to check the date available for the equipment. If it's older than what you are using it's probably not got as much capability. If it's newer than what you are using then it's probably got more capability than your equipment. [X(]

That's not always true but it's pretty close. [&o]

Good Hunting.

MR



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:44:44 PM)

Thanks for all that. I have a significant learning curve here.

Here's an example of my problem.

This is one unit I see.... I would love to know what the T-808V is armed with and its quality as an AFV, this is just an example. Its also one of the easiest of them inventory I know.

So is there a good site where I can go and see what one looked like and what it packed as a gun and what protection and number of crew etc etc?

Failing that any recommended books?

Roger



jds1978 -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:46:16 PM)

Get a look in the Sub Unit Inspector.....it gives all the info you need[:'(]



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:47:53 PM)

For some reason it would not publish the screenshot.....

[image]local://upfiles/41758/6A768653C61E470CACC15D0C6BC8D0D0.jpg[/image]



Mad Russian -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:47:55 PM)

Have you looked at the equipment in the Sub Unit Inspector?

Good Hunting.

MR



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:49:16 PM)

Duh, I have now I found it........

Apologies, I really am new to this game and the period.

Roger



Mad Russian -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/28/2014 2:55:45 PM)

No problem Roger. Everybody starts somewhere.

That's why we are here, to answer questions about the game. Where those questions come from or what they entail doesn't matter. What matters is we help you gain a better understanding of how the game plays.

Good Hunting.

MR



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/29/2014 6:47:34 AM)

I've only played a small bit and, like Mr. Neilson, am unfamiliar with the equipment and tactics of 'modern' (post WWII) warfare so the learning curve is steep indeed. But this game is such a rare gem. Very few times are we gamers lucky enough to be graced with such a fresh, innovative, and polished title such as this. I look forward to a long life of future FC titles.

Also, your support and accessibility post release should be a model for other developers to strive for. Top-notch.

mo reb



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/29/2014 8:18:50 AM)

+1 to the comments on support above.

First class.

Roger



chrisol -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/29/2014 3:26:27 PM)

The Vital Guide to Modern Tanks and AFVs is a bit old but provides background for most of the units in the game. The advantage of it being old, is that it's possible to get it cheap... in fact for £0.01 second hand on Amazon (here: Amazon link + postage (but still not bad for £2.81)

Best wishes,
Chris




CapnDarwin -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/29/2014 4:35:15 PM)

I'm toying with the idea of adding a units and equipment primer to help new players. Put some summary info for each unit type like main battle tanks and self propelled SAMs. Then cover the sensors and systems used in game terms of what they do. Would this be a help to those new to this type of warfare?



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/29/2014 4:48:49 PM)

Absolutely, especially if it had some info in how it correlates with the game. i.e. some do's and dont's, pro's and con's.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/29/2014 6:19:25 PM)

Anything would be a help.

Roger



ashandresash -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/30/2014 12:55:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

I'm toying with the idea of adding a units and equipment primer to help new players. Put some summary info for each unit type like main battle tanks and self propelled SAMs. Then cover the sensors and systems used in game terms of what they do. Would this be a help to those new to this type of warfare?


That would be pretty helpful. I've just bought it, and played (and loved!) the tutorial, and it's certainly quite different from WWII wargames, to which I'm more used to.



LuckyJim1010 -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/30/2014 2:03:34 PM)

I think the 'problem' here is that games like this and Command attract the sort of people who have knowledge of the time frame and systems in that period.
Personally I started in board-gaming, hands up if you played MechWar '77 ?
And of course miniatures wargaming. My British, Chieftain heavy Task Force was my pride and joy. [:)]

The one thing I do miss from the old board games from the like of SPI, AH etc are the Gamers and Designers notes.
They used to take apart the scenarios, tactics, strategy, and provide the background you needed to start with the game.
I still recall the novel like manual's from NATO Division Commander ("There's a reason a Division Commanders stars are gold and not a baser metal") and SPI's 'Task Force'. The latter's designer notes gave me invaluable insight to the possible NATO-Pact war at sea ("Shoot 'n Scoot)

Of course these days there is a wealth of information out there, it's just finding the good stuff.

You could do worse than getting a copy of this : http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/tank-war-%E2%80%93-central-front-nato-vs.-warsaw-pact_9780850459043

Please take this as in no way a criticism of the designers and craftsman that made this game a superb piece of work.






Tim James -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/30/2014 3:54:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1010

I think the 'problem' here is that games like this and Command attract the sort of people who have knowledge of the time frame and systems in that period.

This is the problem with wargames in general. Almost always, you're expected to already know terminology, command structure, weapon systems, etc. As one of the few people who came to this genre from the gaming side rather than the military or military history side, my biggest challenge is working through the jargon (verbal and "mechanical" if you will).

I often feel like this is one of reasons this genre remains a limited niche. I suspect it's difficult for wargame designers to envision the game from the perspective of someone who is not a military geek.

With that said, I'm perfectly happy to read a book or guide for strategy and tactics. That's a different level from the basic jargon.



Alchenar -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/30/2014 5:54:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tim James

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1010

I think the 'problem' here is that games like this and Command attract the sort of people who have knowledge of the time frame and systems in that period.

This is the problem with wargames in general. Almost always, you're expected to already know terminology, command structure, weapon systems, etc. As one of the few people who came to this genre from the gaming side rather than the military or military history side, my biggest challenge is working through the jargon (verbal and "mechanical" if you will).

I often feel like this is one of reasons this genre remains a limited niche. I suspect it's difficult for wargame designers to envision the game from the perspective of someone who is not a military geek.

With that said, I'm perfectly happy to read a book or guide for strategy and tactics. That's a different level from the basic jargon.


This a thousand times.

I also find it unhelpful to be told to go read books on Cold War strategy and tactics (although I often do it anyway out of interest). I'm not commanding a real brigade in the Cold War, I'm playing a video game and the game is a system of rules. The book on cold war tactics is not going to tell me when it's appropriate to use a 'screen' command or a 'hold' command, nor is it helpful in explaining whether it's worth it to move my tank platoon one hex over in order to gain 10% more cover bonus. It won't explain what the difference between 60 visibility and 70 visibility in terms of my unit's willingness to detect and shoot things.

It's a genre problem that wargame developers keep too much of the game 'under the hood'. FPS suffers less than that from most because information tends to come in obvious better-or-worse value forms, and choices tend to have obvious trade-offs, but it's still an issue.



WABAC -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/30/2014 7:08:17 PM)

Try browsing the spreadsheets in the national directories under \modules\data before launching into a game. Explanation of the various codes are in the manual. Studying the silhouettes in the common data file helps too.




Mad Russian -> RE: Great game but struggling here (11/30/2014 7:52:44 PM)

The easiest way to evaluate your forces vs their forces is by date of equipment issue. Look to see how new your equipment is vs their equipment.

If they are roughly the same dates for deployment they will have roughly the same ability. If one is older than the other the newer equipment will have more ability and the bigger the difference in times of deployment the bigger the difference in capability.

Check the Sub Unit Identification information to see more specifics such as thermal sights, etc.

Good Hunting.

MR



Tim James -> RE: Great game but struggling here (12/1/2014 3:18:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
I also find it unhelpful to be told to go read books on Cold War strategy and tactics (although I often do it anyway out of interest). I'm not commanding a real brigade in the Cold War, I'm playing a video game and the game is a system of rules. The book on cold war tactics is not going to tell me when it's appropriate to use a 'screen' command or a 'hold' command, nor is it helpful in explaining whether it's worth it to move my tank platoon one hex over in order to gain 10% more cover bonus. It won't explain what the difference between 60 visibility and 70 visibility in terms of my unit's willingness to detect and shoot things.

I know what you're saying, but once you do figure out the gamey mechanics and the basic military jargon, it's surprising how much wargames do line up with historical strategy and tactics. That's one of the joys of playing them. Which is a good thing, given the genre's limitations elsewhere. :)



istari6 -> RE: Great game but struggling here (12/1/2014 5:31:42 PM)

+1 for the idea of supplying an units and equipment primer for new players. Even though I'm a long-time Cold War student, there are always new things to learn about the equipment and tactics of the period.

I too really miss the inclusion of Game Designer notes. I still have Frank Chadwick's excellent Designer notes for the GDW Assault series. Was fun to go back and reread his stuff on the BAOR and the Bundeswehr while playing FPRS. I never owned NATO Division Commander or SPI's Task Force. Are the Designer Notes good enough to be worth buying them used, even if I'll never play the actual games?

Another strong recommendation for folks looking to learn about this period is Steven J Zaloga's "Red Thrust: Attack on the Central Front Soviet Tactics and Capabilities in the 1990s". Most people don't even know this book exists, but it's my favorite about this time period. He wrote the book in 1989 and it seems to have been published just after the fall of the Berlin Wall, which unfortunately invalidated all his hard work in creating a realistic scenario. But his insights into the organization, weapons and tactics of motor rifle, tanks, Hinds, frontal aviation, Spetznaz, artillery and chemical weapons are all excellent. Each chapter is organized with a (very well-written) fictional scenario, followed by analysis of each combat arm. Highly recommended.

Chris



istari6 -> RE: Great game but struggling here (12/1/2014 5:40:32 PM)

Also, would it be possible for Capn Darwin, MR and the rest of the OTS team to include Game Designer notes in Southern Storm? It's been great reading these forums and learning more about the details "under the hood" in this superb game. Would be awesome to read more about the assumptions behind the combat model, the challenges in modeling Cold War warfare, and other interesting tidbits from the designers.



LuckyJim1010 -> RE: Great game but struggling here (12/1/2014 6:29:19 PM)

Hi istari6

quote:

I never owned NATO Division Commander or SPI's Task Force. Are the Designer Notes good enough to be worth buying them used, even if I'll never play the actual games?


Now your stretching my memory [:)] But from what I remember NDC especially was well worth the value. There was a seriously disturbing blow by blow account of a 3rd AD Mech Heavy brigade breaking out of a Pact encirclement or some such operation. Disturbing because I recall that part of the plan involved dropping a 5KT Nuke on the Pact Division HQ to disrupt Ivan's C&C. The matter of fact way it was described in the Notes was quite surreal.

I also recall that it was the first time I had heard of BMNT, Beginning Morning Nautical Twilight [:)] The time all soldiers are wary of.

The game itself was almost like an RPG and from what I remember there was never enough support chits to go around. But for a quite simply superb, in depth look at the period it was beyond comparison.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7112/nato-division-commander



istari6 -> RE: Great game but struggling here (12/1/2014 7:30:54 PM)

Thanks LuckyJim. Appreciate the quick reply. I just searched online and can't find a copy of the Designer's Notes, and eBay is listing NDC starting at $75 (!). Will keep looking...



Deathtreader -> RE: Great game but struggling here (12/2/2014 1:12:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: istari6

Also, would it be possible for Capn Darwin, MR and the rest of the OTS team to include Game Designer notes in Southern Storm? It's been great reading these forums and learning more about the details "under the hood" in this superb game. Would be awesome to read more about the assumptions behind the combat model, the challenges in modeling Cold War warfare, and other interesting tidbits from the designers.


I definitely agree!

Rob.



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