How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (Full Version)

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Mgellis -> How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (11/30/2014 6:24:02 PM)


This thread is meant to discuss the tactics that might be employed by small nations, rebels, etc. who do not have access to more expensive military platforms (e.g., cruisers), and how these might be used in Command.

I did a bit of brainstorming and this is what I came up with so far...

* Shoulder-launched SAM missiles

* Light civil aircraft might be used as spotting planes...as long as you don't get too close to the warships, would anyone know you were not just a Cessna taking passengers from point A to point B?

* Possibly, medium-sized SAMs, especially older ones like SA-9s, which are probably available from various countries for not particularly outrageous prices)

* Speedboats with machine guns, RPGs, etc. (easily modeled with the 7- and 11-meter RHIBs)

* Artillery...good old-fashioned artillery employed as coastal guns...lots of 120-mm. mortars, towed howitzers, MRLs, etc. floating around the third world.

* AAA cannons...see above...huge quantities of Cold War vintage guns are probably available to someone with the right contacts and a few hundred thousand dollars (which is a lot of money, but about a thousand times less than the cost of a major warship like a frigate).

In short, it sounds like the name of the game is "deny the littoral." Even with well-hidden coastal guns, you can't hit targets more than five or ten miles from shore. If you have swarms of speed boats with RPGs, you might extend that to 20 miles or so, if you don't mind taking horrible losses for the chance to seriously damage a large warship and either put it out of action or possibly even sink it. But you have a reasonable chance of keeping helicopters, landing craft, etc. from getting too close to you.

So...what else could a force like this do?

Would it make sense to arm fishing trawlers with heavier weapons like small naval guns? What about purchasing some older surface-to-surface missiles like the Styx? (Doesn't Iran have a bunch of these?)

I'm looking forward to this discussion...



Dutchie999 -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (11/30/2014 6:44:36 PM)


I think fishing boats with long range anti tank weapons (HORNET?) are quite reasonable. And difficult to defend against.



Randomizer -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (11/30/2014 7:31:05 PM)

I think that for the CMANO Scenario Author it matters far less what the insurgents/terrorists/freedom-fighters/rebels are equipped with as opposed to trying to model the situation that is provided to the Player as authentic as possible. Aspects of this could include:
- Lots of civilians and infrastructure that the Player should be penalized if he destroys or damages it.
- Civilian units that may or may not assist the target side.
- Multiple sides with multiple postures and events to change the latter should certain triggers occur.
- detailed briefing and orders for the Player coupled with ROE restrictions and significant penalties for exceeding either; and
- Lots of other stuff is possible.

Consider the following situation:

Player's Side A - The interventionist/protectionist/superior force side.
Insurgent Side B
Civilian Side C
Civilian Side D
Civilian Side E

A is hostile to B and neutral to everybody else
B is hostile to A and E, friendly to C and neutral to everybody else
C is friendly to B, unfriendly to A and neutral to everybody else
D is neutral to everybody
E is unfriendly to B and C and neutral to everybody else

By manipulating Postures, Collective Responsibility and Awareness settings along with some creative events you can create a dynamic situation that can make executing the mission a big challenge for the Player regardless of the weapons used by Side-B. I think how you script the scenario and the events matters far more than what hardware is provided for the "weaker" side in any asymmetrical scenario but the potential is limited mostly by the imagination. That said, I would make every effort to model a single operation; that is short duration and relatively limited scope. In the above example the Player could be required to protect Side-E (who cannot/will not provide assistance) but inflicting casualties on any of the three civilian sides could trigger nasty events or VP penalties for the Player. This potentially introduces all sorts of realistic situation for the Player regardless of the weapons that Side B is equipped with. Submit that these sorts of situations are very susceptible to scenario creep and can easily grow out of control during the development process.

I think that CMANO sometimes engenders a tendency to obsess about the hardware (witness the requests for different models of the same airliner to be added to the databases for simulation purposes and by way of example four variations of a B-777 are entirely redundant) rather than the political/military environment where the hardware will actually be used in the scenario.

-C



Mgellis -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (11/30/2014 9:31:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dutchie999

I think fishing boats with long range anti tank weapons (HORNET?) are quite reasonable. And difficult to defend against.


I wonder how much armament you could put on, say, a 100- or 200-ton fishing boat. Or a trawler. Or a 2,000-ton ocean supply vessel. This is assuming people with some backing (e.g., a Persian Gulf nation that supports their cause, etc.) but no way to legally buy actual warships who had to buy commercial vessels and then rely on a Home Depot approach to arm them. Shoulder-launched SAMs, certainly. How big a gun could you put on a ship like this, though? Could you put missiles or torpedoes on it?

I also wonder what drug cartels might come up with...sure, this kind of armed boat won't stand up to a destroyer, but what about an OPV whose main weapon is one 25-mm gun? I could see drug cartels that have started actually taking over territory in a country (perhaps not officially, but if you own the local police isn't that pretty much the same thing?) coming up with their "homebrew" versions of patrol boats. Or is that going too far?

One thing to keep in mind is that while these ships are, one-on-one, no match for modern warships, they would be incredibly cheap. You could probably put together an armed trawler capable of sinking another trawler for less than a million dollars. Compare that to a modern frigate that costs hundreds of times more. So, for a fraction of the cost of one frigate, you could have your own "navy" of armed fishing boats capable of really hurting other civilian or merchant traffic.






poosd -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (12/1/2014 3:15:20 PM)

This is from a post I made on the CWDB update forum. Similar thoughts to increase flexibility of CMANO. Not so much in the vein of asymmetrical conflict, but more in line with recreating all sorts of unusual combat and non-combat situations at sea, under the sea, in the air and on land. Search and rescue, exploration, salvage. I know it's not what CMANO was designed to do, but the devs have done such a great job in making this system open and flexible, it opens up all sorts of previously out of reach areas.

"***The following thought came about after reading "Red Storm Rising" by Mr. Clancy. Specifically..."In Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising, a Victor-class submarine stakes out a New York to Europe convoy to reinforce NATO against a Soviet attack by sitting next to the wreck of the Andrea Doria (40 29 30 N, 69 51 0 W) - hoping to confuse MAD readings. USS Reuben James (FFG-57) and HMS Battleaxe (F89), working in conjunction, use their helicopters to find and destroy the submarine."

To that end, I was also wondering...how about some generic sunken ships of various sizes. We have "Biologics" and "False Contacts", both are classified as Submarines, but all display as "Properties - Non magnetic hull", so I am assuming that you would not get a MAD contact using these. Here's my thoughts (for what they are worth). Speed - 0, Depth - As deep as possible, Properties - Small, Medium and Large magnetic hull. As far as passive sonar contact, shouldn't show much if anything, but could? Active sonar...that may take some thought. If a wreck is detectable via active sonar in some form, you open up a whole range of "Hunting shipwrecks" scenario's...maybe with side scan sonar? Or how about a missing nuclear bomb hunt off the Caroline coast or Spain?

***Also, anyone got a photo of a #1564 Bottom Fixed Array (SOSUS)? I can't seem to find one, even though the technology appears outdated. Plenty of pictures of NavFacs (on shore portion of SOSUS).
(Still looking for this!)

Just some thoughts!
Dean"



gbethel -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (12/2/2014 2:24:11 PM)

Asymmetric warfare is about ambush, deception, and maximizing the capabilities of your assets through creative thinking.

Examples -

Getting a nondescript vessel to within a few hundred meters of an enemy and launching 6 or more RHIB from the other side of the vessel and mounting a swarm attack. The RHIB's should have a high possibility of taking or destroying a FPB, PC, or possibly an FFL class of vessel.

Placing a mine on a RHIB, Typhoon-type ROV, Dhow, or Junk. Get the mine laden vessel to within a couple dozen meters and detonate. Think homemade torpedo.

Send an SOS from a nondescript vessel and when the would be rescuers approach launch an attack to destroy or capture the rescuers. Or maybe the asymetric forces allow themselves to be towed into port and then they open fire.



SSN754planker -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (12/2/2014 8:06:23 PM)

Using civilian planes as recon assets is a viable tactic. The Argentinians used 707's to scout the British task force as it made its way south in 1982. The British knew they were there but were reluctant to shoot them down for fear of them have civilians on board.



mikmykWS -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (12/2/2014 11:17:06 PM)

You'll get a few more tools for this once LUA arrives.

Add units without teleporting.
Posture changes
Multiple missions for the same unit
etc..etc..etc.

M



Mgellis -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (12/3/2014 2:14:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gbethel

Placing a mine on a RHIB, Typhoon-type ROV, Dhow, or Junk. Get the mine laden vessel to within a couple dozen meters and detonate. Think homemade torpedo.



Unfortunately, I've tried doing this and it does not work. The mine will not fire for some reason...I think the problem is that because it is already on another ship, it can never get close enough to trigger its fuse.

I've requested adding to the DB large explosives with very short ranges (e.g., .005 miles) to simulate something that can be set off at a bit of a distance, but which cannot be thrown or carried by a person because it is too heavy...the kind of thing you'd use as an IED or a truck bomb or a suicide boat. I think I suggested a 500-lb. explosive charge and a 5-kiloton terrorist nuke. I'm hoping these will eventually be added to the database.







MR_BURNS2 -> RE: How do you handle asymmetric conflicts? (12/3/2014 4:21:28 AM)

Your rebels may also use anti ship missiles if they have friends who can supply them, there is a precedent for such an attack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Hanit#Attack_on_July_14.2C_2006

Or long-range ATGM like Dutchie suggested, there is a novel that suggests swarm attacks by fast small boats equipped with ATGM, taking out a cruisers radar.

A suicide bomber boat like the one that attacked USS Cole would certainly a welcome addition to the DB.



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