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warspite1 -> RE: Bought it: Really Enjoying Getting into It (12/6/2014 4:09:09 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Numdydar
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
There was not a lot of surface action after 1942 because of what had happened in 1939 - 42. The whole point is that as war gamers we try and change that! If the game starts in 1939, that's still an awful lot of naval war To be fought - even if things got leaner in the second half.
But of course had Campioni (or Supermarina) had balls, the struggle could have been continued as more RN units would have been sent to the Med to shore up a pretty dire position. Of course the big limiting factor for the RM from 1942 was the lack of oil but early Italian success may have reduced the oil expenditure by practically (if not actually) forcing the RN out of the Med.
Can't see that the difference between playing the Pacific from 42-45 and playing Europe from 39-42 is that different. Sure the battles are not the same (less carriers in the ETO), but the intensity was no less.
Well the main naval actions did not get started in the West until France fell. So you are really looking from about Aug '40 - '42 to really have an apples to apples comparison to the PTO.
The point I was making is that given X amount of coding time, it seems that time spent in other aspects of the '39-42 period of the ETO would be a better use of resources than trying to recreate an AE experience that would only cover a brief period of time in the ETO. That's all.
While I have NO insight into 2by3, I would suspect that whatever naval system they develop would follow along the same lines of the land and air systems. Where individual ships would be assigned to some type of 'container'. Whether it be a TF or maybe a naval 'region'. So naval individual 'assets' would be represented but not at the level and functionality of AE.
Of course how they would 'fit' any naval system into a weekly turn given that most naval actions are over in hours will be interesting to see how they do it. [:)]
warspite1
Again we will have to disagree [;)]
Firstly, at no point, did I say I necessarily want a WITP-AE game here. I DID say I wanted every warship represented – but, as WIF proved, the two don’t go hand in hand – it’s what system you employ with all those counters that counts. Something less than WITP-AE would work – provided it’s not too abstract like Generic TF counters and the like. That would be a big mistake imo.
Re the comparison between the naval wars in the ETO and PTO, sorry but I think that is wrong too.
The naval actions were very different because of the fleets that each possessed. However, as I say, the naval war in the ETO was no less intense - and just as important for gaming purposes - no less full of possibilities.
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Well the main naval actions did not get started in the West until France fell.
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So you are really looking from about Aug '40 - '42 No – June.
Sorry, but again we are not going to see eye to eye on this. If by "Main" you mean capital ship actions, then yes, given Bismarck and Tirpitz were late to the party and the Regia Marina came in in June 1940, such actions were limited until then. But capital ship action is not the be all and end all of the naval war.
Allied and Axis naval personnel were fighting and dying right from the start. The Royal Navy time and again saved the Army – Norway, France, Greece and Crete. Losses were hideous – and could have been worse. Imagine if German torpedoes had worked in Norway. Assets available to the RN to defend the convoys and the Med suddenly start to look incredibly thin….
Aside from the smaller ship actions, even in the nine months to June 40 there were plenty of larger ship encounters (Graf Spee and the Ugly Sisters) and plenty of (war gaming) potential for more (Deutschland) and, with a little more luck (weather) and less meddling (by the Admiralty) there could have been a major encounters during the Norwegian Campaign (as opposed to “just” the Renown vs the Ugly Sisters then Glorious vs the Ugly Sisters). All this does not include the air vs naval battles and the sub vs capital ships (Royal Oak and Courageous).
Then, once the Italians were in the war the naval war really intensified – and the extent to which it could have intensified further (had Supermarina grown a set) makes for incredibly interesting war gaming possibilities. Then there is the French Fleet and what happens to this.
So in summary, is the ETO worth a detailed naval game? Damn right it is.
Do we need WITP-AE type detail? No, not necessarily.
This is a big decision for an early war expansion imo.
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