"Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (Full Version)

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MisterBoats -> "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 4:35:58 AM)

"Breakout and Pursuit" is a treat. I have reached the banks of the Seine as of August 22nd, after a ferocious series of battles in the bocage country. Once Avranches fell, the Germans bugged out of Normandy and did not look back. No Mortain counteroffensive; no Falaise Pocket. I had hoped to swing up the US armored divisions along the Seine and bag as many German units as possible, although I certainly don't mind the long-range movement after several weeks in the hedgerows.

The book Breakout and Pursuit, by Martin Blumenson, is a great read. It's wonderful to be able to recreate that period, albeit with different strategies and outcomes. I do not intend to send any armor into Brittany, but I imagine that liberating a few of the ports there will be necessary for victory. Three infantry divisions have sealed off the peninsula. Everyone else is charging east. I plan to carry out a unified power drive along the coast, culminating in the liberation of Antwerp and its coastal approaches.

This is all a dream come true, and well worth the wait.



Grotius -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 6:22:42 AM)

Heh, I've been playing that scenario all evening, but much less successfully than you! In my first attempt (on Challenging), it took me two months to get out of the hedgerows, and I still hadn't taken Argentan. In my current game (on Normal), things are going faster. It sure is fun. :)



speedy.gh -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 8:14:12 AM)

It is easier to break through the West sector, where Americans can push with all tanks and infantry in a deep but weaker sector. It should take 1-2 turns to open a hole. From that point on, German AI retreats in a very ordered way, being very difficult to pocket anything but some isolted units.



Remmes -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 8:55:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: speedy.gh

It should take 1-2 turns to open a hole.


Can you really break their defense lines that fast? Took me several (4-5) turn of battering to get things fluid.



Blond_Knight -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 12:15:28 PM)

I loved playing this scenario during the beta. Id throw everything I had at holding the line and delaying the Allies. Then Id get steamrollered.



Nico165b165 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 1:04:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramses


quote:

ORIGINAL: speedy.gh

It should take 1-2 turns to open a hole.


Can you really break their defense lines that fast? Took me several (4-5) turn of battering to get things fluid.



Here's what I have as WE at the start of turn 3:

[image]http://www.forty-two.me/files/witw_cobra.jpg[/image]

This is my second attempt. The first attempt I was stuck in the bocage till the end of august like you. A few tips I found useful :

- Pay attention to the support units of your front lines units. It may give 1 or 2 extra CV which can make all the difference.
- You really need to optimize the movement point of every unit every turn. Attack with a good ratio (I find 2/1 good enough in most cases) but no more than what you need. Yes, 4/1 is better than 3/1, but wont those extra MP be better used to make another succesful attack ?
- Exploitation. Your powerful armored divisions can go deeply through some 1-hex corridor if needed. They have the power to bypass the ZOC to a certain extent. This way you can threaten the flanks and the rear of the enemy, forcing him to retreat from the bocage without combat.

I find the axis AI very clever in its "breaking and retreat point". Just when I broke through after my second turn, they began to retreat all the way to the Seine to avoid being pocketed. I only have 3 divisions pocketed in Granville and will need a few turns to clean this up. There is a powerful fallschirmjaeger division in there (70 CV !)



Remmes -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 2:51:58 PM)

Thanks Nico,

Looks like a pretty impressive stack on your left, poised for the breakout.



MisterBoats -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 3:47:21 PM)

I've been playing on normal difficulty. I began each ground phase with multiple attacks by the British and Canadians, hopefully to draw in as many German reinforcements and support units as possible. Keeping an eye on the movement points is vital. The congestion in the American sector is frustrating! A constant rotation of units is necessary, in my view, to allow armored and fresh infantry divisions a chance at assaults. I did surround a large German force in Granville, then Avranches fell the next turn. After that is has been a race to the Seine.

My plan is to launch a unified power drive up the Channel coast. I'd like to have 2nd and 3rd Armies side by side, plowing through everything that stands in their way. 1st Army can cover the inland flank. With luck, the Brits and Canadians will seize Antwerp and its coastal approaches by the end of the scenario. I do need to review the victory locations and make sure I don't ignore a few vital ones.



Joel Billings -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 4:35:43 PM)

Don't forget to use maximum interdiction on the part of the front you are trying to penetrate. This can be the key to a quick breakout. However, getting stuck the first time you try this scenario is par for the course, and if you don't get going well on turn 1, it is possible to stay stuck in the bocage for a number of turns.



Ostwindflak -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 5:33:03 PM)

Just curious if anyone has found success in playing with the Germans against an Allied AI in this scenario.



Grotius -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 5:39:20 PM)

I've played this scenario as the Germans for 2-3 turns on Challenging, Normal, and Easy. Each time, the AI was cleaning my clock! I was actually kind of impressed with the AI. I kept dialing down the difficulty to see whether it would hurt the AI much. Hmmph, if anything, it did better on Easy than it did on Normal. :)(

That said, the quality of the German units obviously isn't great. If you don't keep the Allies mired down in the bocage, it's trouble. Thing is, you don't have control over what happens in turn 1, and in my games, the AI always made it to Granville at least.



Grotius -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 5:45:13 PM)

I've been meaning to ask whether using Reserve units on offense makes any sense in a scenario like this (or in Italy), where it's hard to maneuver to bring lots of offense to bear. My worry is that Reserve units will clog up the area right behind my offensive line, and I'd rather manually shuttle exploiters in and out of those hexes, as Erik Rutins suggested earlier. Does anyone use Reserve on offense?



Joel Billings -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 6:17:55 PM)

They can make the difference in a close battle. It's always better to win than to be bounced, but on the other hand if the unit is not needed, it's better to save it for a follow up move/attack. I've seen reserves used effectively in this scenario, but I've also seen them overused, so I'm not sure if there's a clear answer.



Grotius -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 7:12:06 PM)

Thanks. Very interesting.



carlkay58 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 8:02:37 PM)

Breakout is the best scenario to learn how to use tactical air missions. With proper air usage, you can break out on turn 1 or 2 pretty regularly. Just play around with your air until you find what works best.




MisterBoats -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 9:27:07 PM)

In my second running of B&P (Allies -- normal difficulty) Avranches has fallen on the second turn. It appears that the Germans have a very thinly held line in the American sector. I did get severely thrashed in the 2nd turn after leaving two British armored divisions in an "outpost" hex -- one of those with about four hex sides exposed. The counterattack promptly evicted both divisions. It's great to see an AI opponent recognize and exploit bad human decisions.

In my first B&P experience I was interested to see the German forces congeal along thew Seine and put up a stout defense along that line. I took Paris in late August, but there was no pell mell race to Belgium or the German border. Simply getting the American units to the Seine took longer than I expected. A handful of divisions cleared Brittany fairly quickly, so that was good.

WITW is a real winner. I get that sense of immersion that we all seek, and rarely experience. AE does it, as well. Bravo to Matrix and 2X3.



Nico165b165 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 10:10:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterBoats

I did get severely thrashed in the 2nd turn after leaving two British armored divisions in an "outpost" hex -- one of those with about four hex sides exposed. The counterattack promptly evicted both divisions. It's great to see an AI opponent recognize and exploit bad human decisions.


If you look at the bottom right panel with the AI instruction running, you'll see at the start of the AI ground phase a line "assault exposed units". That's the first move done by the AI, and that's the one responsible for such decision. And it does not only counter attack with adjacent units : in this breakthrough scenario, I had two US armored divisions exposed with four possible axis of attack. I thought I was pretty safe because they had ~15 CV for defense and the opposite german units were weak after the initial breakthrough. But in this "assault exposed units" phase, the AI brought some panzer and SS divisions from the british front and launched a succesfull counter attack. Maybe I did not setup enough interdiction power in this zone. I didn't think an AI could imagine such an impressive counter attack. Now I know it can.



paullus99 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/9/2014 10:58:25 PM)

Nice to see the AI isn't held captive by stupid Fuhrer Orders.



MisterBoats -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/10/2014 12:18:32 AM)

I agree. Hitler's handling of the campaign ranks right up there with the worst AIs I've ever seen. In other games, as the German commander, I establish a line well inland at the start. The bocage, higher elevations and being out of naval gunfire range aid the defense quite a bit. I even let the British have Caen, after I bombard it into rubble. I haven't played the D-Day start campaigns in WITW yet, but I look forward to them. This is going to be a "daily use" game. I may have to alternate days between WITW and AE.



gerardo -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 9:36:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Don't forget to use maximum interdiction on the part of the front you are trying to penetrate. This can be the key to a quick breakout. However, getting stuck the first time you try this scenario is par for the course, and if you don't get going well on turn 1, it is possible to stay stuck in the bocage for a number of turns.


I'm playing this scenario (very fun) but, as happened to others, i have been stuck in the bocage for many turns. How do you use 'maximun interdiction' as you seggest?

Thanks, Gerardo



jnpoint -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 9:52:07 AM)

I have played this scenario as Axis and Allies. So far only on easy. As Axis I had no problems to hold the Allies from breaking through. As Allies I only got a 'draw'. I never got any good odds against the German units. It was most of the time in their favor. Mostly 7-23 against 17-70 (sometimes more than 90). Something I do wrong?

And sometimes I do not understand those CV numbers. Just had a battle where my odds was 17/192 - and THEY retreated? Why - I should have no chance to win that one or what?



marion61 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 1:55:40 PM)

It's a good scenario and fun to play, but it taught me exactly why I shouldn't invade as the WA's in Normandy [8D].



Devonport -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 3:56:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Don't forget to use maximum interdiction on the part of the front you are trying to penetrate. This can be the key to a quick breakout. However, getting stuck the first time you try this scenario is par for the course, and if you don't get going well on turn 1, it is possible to stay stuck in the bocage for a number of turns.


I'm interested that all the advice is to use interdiction in these circumstances but not Unit attack. Why is this, and what is unit attack for then?



marion61 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 4:08:18 PM)

Unit disruption before ground combat. It reduces their effectiveness and is just as important when assaulting tough positions.



Joel Billings -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 4:59:23 PM)

Bomb unit will cause disruption, which is converted to fatigue at the end of the attack. So doing some bomb unit can be useful in reducing the defensive capability of the unit (in addition to killing a few elements and placing a small amount of interdiction in the hex). Interdiction is very useful because it effectively pins the elements in place and prevents easy movement of the elements to the key point of battle. In the game it does this by causing disruption at the start of any battle. So a high interdiction level in a hex will greatly disrupt the defenders in the hex. It can also make it harder for reserve units to commit to the battle. In Normandy given the two tac airforces nearby in England, you should be able to achieve high levels of interdiction (6-9) on the critical sector of your attack. The AI can reach Avranches on turn 1, and you should be able to do this as well. Playing on easy will make it harder for the Allied AI to breakout. If you are the Allies on easy, you should be able to breakout on turn 2 if you match the AI's normal turn 1 moves. If you don't have inerdiction over the front and 2-3 hexes behind it that are in the high single digits, then you aren't focusing your airpower as you should.



Joel Billings -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 5:02:59 PM)

I would need to see more info about a 17 to 192 battle to understand why you won. Are you looking at the combat CV predictor in the rollover before you make your attack? There are some factors not in the counter CV so looking at the rollover can help some. The defender might have a strong CV on the counter, but if you have a 9 interdiction over the hex, you may disrupt so many defenders that his CV is much lower. Then you may shoot up the rest (killing/damaging/disrupting even more defenders) so that there is little defensive CV remaining when it checks to see what the final odds are.



jnpoint -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 5:38:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I would need to see more info about a 17 to 192 battle to understand why you won. Are you looking at the combat CV predictor in the rollover before you make your attack? There are some factors not in the counter CV so looking at the rollover can help some. The defender might have a strong CV on the counter, but if you have a 9 interdiction over the hex, you may disrupt so many defenders that his CV is much lower. Then you may shoot up the rest (killing/damaging/disrupting even more defenders) so that there is little defensive CV remaining when it checks to see what the final odds are.


I first left clicked my attacking units and then pointed on the enemy stacks of units, and it told me that it was 17 to 192CV. So It was before I attacked. I would have showed a pic, but I do not know how to?



marion61 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 6:08:28 PM)

Sometimes that is just bad recon info. I've attacked regiments with huge CV's in mountain terrain and won easily too.



carlkay58 -> RE: "Breakout" -- all kinds of fun. (12/22/2014 6:29:54 PM)

Yes, and I have launched attacks against a CV 1 unit and hand my butt handed to me when it turned up to have a real CV of 10!



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