Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (Full Version)

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jadelith -> Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/9/2014 6:21:22 AM)

Hi

I used to play quamenos exclusively, until the 0% tax pop growth fix.

I started a new game, but it was quite difficult paying off 7 pirate factions (I always play with many strong pirate factions) without nearly maxing out taxes. Coupled with a very low base growth rate, my homeworld took ages to reach max, and the max tax rate I could use was 35% ish.

Securans on the other hand, get good leaders (at least from my experience), and growth rates can go up to 40-50% during the cycles. Which, when compared to <10% max quameno growth, is tremendous. Coupled with the ability to tax close to 90% (which means always crash research), makes them way better than quameno IMO.

What do you think? Securans, quameno, or some other race for peaceful games?



Aeson -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/9/2014 10:48:34 AM)

'Best' is a very subjective question, which can depend greatly on the stage of the game that you wish to base the evaluation upon (e.g. very late game Quameno has nothing going for it aside from its special reactors, whereas early game Quameno have a significant edge in the research department and are not likely to be very outmatched economically) and on how you play a faction.

For what it's worth, one could argue that Securan population growth is a drawback for any empire founded by that species. A Quameno Technocracy is guaranteed to have significant research bonuses, can readily make up for lackluster population growth as long as it can find appropriate independent colonies (i.e. ones settled by faster-growing species), and will likely have a relatively easy time incorporating a sufficiently large population of other species to gain a reasonable fraction of, for example, the Ketarov espionage bonus. A Securan empire has a much harder time incorporating other species for the empire bonuses in large part because of its high native population growth and doesn't have any significant empire bonuses of its own. Which one is better really depends on how you play and what you can find to bring into the empire. For that matter, if neither faction can find independent colonies to expand colonization options quickly, the Quameno are most likely going to be the first empire to be able to expand into non-native colony types due to their superior research, which may give them an advantage in total colonies, which can translate to an advantage in total population and total population growth, and can readily translate into superior expansion due to the ability to claim the better colonies earlier or claim regions of space with well-selected colony sites.



jadelith -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/9/2014 4:38:18 PM)

I'm by no means an expert, but doesn't the fact that securans swim in cash mean that quameno will never be able to crash research like the securans? Also, building as many explorers as you can, and aiming to find way of the ancients ASAP means that at least some of the research bonus quameno has will be gone before reaching mid game.

I agree about racial bonuses, but the ability to tax your maxed out colonies to death, and almost-gizurean population growth gives you enough of an advantage in early game to compensate for that I think.

Again, I only play on hard, so I may be completely wrong :) but quameno's earlier advantage with 0% tax bug (IMO) was so much, that playing them with low pop growth is a bit difficult to swallow for me at this point :P Although I may have been unlucky with pirate spawns as them - I end up with 20% tax rate right at the beginning of the game, and more than half of that goes to pirates (at least until I'm done with the 2nd tier techs).



Kayoz -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/10/2014 6:02:19 AM)

jadelith,

I think you're spot on. Pound for pound, Quaemeno might be better than Securan - and in a late stage game start that might be to their advantage - but for your example, the points you cited were correct. In essence, people are fond of saying that ants are proportionally X times stronger than humans. OK, but I'll put my money on the human squashing the ant because they aren't the same size.

Securan growth is incredible. Your planets fill up in no time and your economy grows even faster (high taxes). Aeson points out that you'll lose out on the racial bonuses with having all your planets filled with Securans and not other races - but ask yourself which is more advantageous. A few % production or research - or a few dozen filled planets that are paying for your monster fleet.

Which leads me to question the "tech advantage" argument. Sure, it's nice to have better tech than anyone. But if I can pay for a fleet 5x as large as anyone else's - if someone has some tech I want, I can just go and take it. The worst tech disadvantage you should be at as Securan is minor. Feel like someone else is ahead of you? Go stomp on him and take it.

Given a pre-warp start, Securan growth and economics vastly outweighs any disadvantage they might have as a result of slower tech or such.



Apheirox -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/16/2014 12:25:39 AM)

Securans are very strong, but pray you don't get attacked, because your Utopian Paradise government form absolutely can't handle that. The game doesn't have multiplayer but if it did the Securans would be *very* vulnerable to other players simply attacking them and forcing them into a war. The AI doesn't know to exploit that, is of course.

Playing on any sort of crowded map that really forces you to expand through conquest and therefore also increases aggression of other factions through border tensions is also a very bad deal for the Securans.

The races are all viable to play, they just prosper under different conditions (ranging from your Utopia to mass nuclear genocide of neighbouring species). One of the great strengths of DW is the excellent (and hilarious - Atuuks!) race design.

My personal favourite is the Gizureans for that outrageous growth rate and the Hivemind government type.



Kayoz -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/16/2014 4:00:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox

Securans are very strong, but pray you don't get attacked, because your Utopian Paradise government form absolutely can't handle that. The game doesn't have multiplayer but if it did the Securans would be *very* vulnerable to other players simply attacking them and forcing them into a war. The AI doesn't know to exploit that, is of course.


The multiplayer aspect could be said of any race. Any warmonger race or player could exploit this if this were the case, and the whole war weariness system would have to be completely redesigned (and I think it should be) if such were the case. With that said - just change your government if you're having problems with it that outweigh the benefits. Isn't that the whole point of being able to change government type?

But my reading of the OP's question is based on what the game is, not what it might be. The game would also be very different if it allowed for terraforming and the inclusion of Borg-like races... but that's not DW as it is, is it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox
Playing on any sort of crowded map that really forces you to expand through conquest and therefore also increases aggression of other factions through border tensions is also a very bad deal for the Securans.


Irrelevant. The question was addressed to peaceful games - "Securans, quameno, or some other race for peaceful games?"

But again, if you're playing in a crowded galaxy with warmongering neighbours - just switch to a more appropriate government. You still retain the incredible growth rate and happiness (ie: higher taxes).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox
The races are all viable to play, they just prosper under different conditions (ranging from your Utopia to mass nuclear genocide of neighbouring species). One of the great strengths of DW is the excellent (and hilarious - Atuuks!) race design.


But that's one of DW's greatest strengths - being able to play how you want and not being regimented to a specific style because of your race. Yet you're ignoring the ability to change government types and attributing it to a "racial weakness", when Elliot has explicitly allows the players to change and adapt that aspect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox
My personal favourite is the Gizureans for that outrageous growth rate and the Hivemind government type.


The absurd growth rate of Sec and Giz is overpowered. I tend to take Teekan for more interesting games. Nice balance of strengths and weaknesses.



Miyuki -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/18/2014 10:18:50 PM)

I typically also play Quameno for the research bonus. my games are exclusively set to 999 research cost and no tech trading.

The reasoning is to get explorers out first by far to do the following

way of ancients
world destroyer locs
derelict locs
suitable colonies within 2 sectors of capital

typically my honeworld is max pop by the time i am 80 percent done warp 1. if you then set resettle on it then pop growth for all future plantes is moot. 2 percent growth at warp 2 with typically a 35 percent tax rate will max pop every tick even with 30 passenger ferries heavy on passenger cap at 400 size.

With warp 2 it is also feasible to grab other races if you set to accept them on your expansion planets.

i typically have5 to 10 colonies by the time the other races get warp 2.



Kayoz -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/19/2014 1:05:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miyuki
999 research cost and no tech trading.


One would be hard pressed to set up a game less advantageous to technology oriented races. Considering that the default is 120k, increasing research to 8x the normal cost gives you an incredible advantage.

That said, I'm not sure how your strategy would compare with Securans, using their incredible growth and economic base to crash research all the time.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/20/2014 6:07:25 AM)

quote:

The AI doesn't know to exploit that, is of course.


Game devs could you make this happen?!! [:)] Well, I guess you did there is a setting for more "aggressive" AI. How many of you use that??? Hrmmmm??? Don't lie now. [:'(]

Also I tend to play my own race, let the teenagers on other planets play theirs. [:'(] I just got spanked by those Shahtura or whatever you call them and I had boocoo planets and was crashing research left and right. But, when I got into a war with them they murderized me. My ships were like toilet paper to their tech. They could kill a defense base within 3 or 4 hits. A single destroyer of mine was gone faster than I could press the escape button.

So, for really fun an challenging games it's best not to look for min/max advantages over the ai. We all know we can win with the "best" sotospeak, but, how many of you can win with the worst or middle of the road. Hell, I thought Humans with their science and diplomacy could win easily, boy did I get a lesson. [:D] Of course I play on hard an aggressive ai so I figure that made a difference. I went for colonizing ocean technology before weapons and defense and I paid for it.

Course I know you said "peaceful" expansion but I haven't seen a peaceful game out of the ai since I got this game.



Kayoz -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/20/2014 7:08:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I just got spanked by those Shahtura or whatever you call them and I had boocoo planets and was crashing research left and right. But, when I got into a war with them they murderized me. My ships were like toilet paper to their tech. They could kill a defense base within 3 or 4 hits. A single destroyer of mine was gone faster than I could press the escape button.


Sounds like very bad ship/base design. But if you put only one shield generator on your def bases, what do you expect?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I went for colonizing ocean technology before weapons and defense and I paid for it.


That makes no sense. Shields, weapons and colonization are in completely different tech trees. You couldn't have gone for ocean tech before the others - they should be done in parallel unless you on purposely zeroed out your other research lines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
I haven't seen a peaceful game out of the ai since I got this game.


I think the OP meant "quiet start and room to expand" when he wrote "peaceful". I don't think it's likely that you will finish any game without having to fight someone.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/20/2014 1:13:16 PM)

Well, Kayoz what I did was build about 20 (yeah I know laugh) high tech research labs at the start and only 1 of the others. What happened was all the tech points basically went into high tech column and the other two suffered. This is what I thought I wanted and while I got to Ocean colonization fast enough I had crap for weapons and no shields no nothing in the military dept. I had paper thin armor as I said. I was using default ships most of the game until I discovered the design feature again. [:D] I was really just trying to play a peaceful game but nearly every ai player was against me from the start and I messed up going to war with those cloaked figures that look like spies in the dark anyways. I forgot they were nearly as powerful if not more powerful than the Guardians. You should have seen it. Wave after wave of fleets charging into this one system with like one or two of these characters ships and they were destroying EVERYTHING. But, I had tons of credits so I just keep building more ships and losing them. Then he got mad and sent a whole GD armada and was taking planets and systems left and right. It was over and I knew it. I didn't even hang around to abdicate myself like Napoleon. [:'(]

Back to tech. I had tech lines in every catagory they just didn't fill up as fast as the high tech ones. They do not run in conjunction of what you build in one catagory. I could shut off any of them when an if I wanted and the others would still keep growing. Didn't need too though since all my tech points were basically in high tech.



Icemania -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/20/2014 2:26:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jadelith
Hi

I used to play quamenos exclusively, until the 0% tax pop growth fix.

I started a new game, but it was quite difficult paying off 7 pirate factions (I always play with many strong pirate factions) without nearly maxing out taxes. Coupled with a very low base growth rate, my homeworld took ages to reach max, and the max tax rate I could use was 35% ish.

Securans on the other hand, get good leaders (at least from my experience), and growth rates can go up to 40-50% during the cycles. Which, when compared to <10% max quameno growth, is tremendous. Coupled with the ability to tax close to 90% (which means always crash research), makes them way better than quameno IMO.

What do you think? Securans, quameno, or some other race for peaceful games?

The Securans and Quameno are probably both a bit OP and which one is better does depend on the setup and strategy.

I greatly prefer pre-warp games. The research boost of the Quameno is very significant in this case as you can get out into the galaxy exploring a lot earlier as Miyuki mentioned. If you are really aggressive with exploration you can get a bunch of lost colonies and derelict colony ships, not just way of the ancients and other benefits, which partly makes up for the lower population growth. You can also get to the Growth wonder faster which greatly speeds up the time to get your homeworld to maximum population. You should also be able to get the double population growth technologies faster but they are bugged as far as I can tell.

If you allow technology trading, you can farm so much cash that you can crash research most of the time even as the Quameno and also fund 0% tax etc. I'd advise against using technology trading as it does force some strategic choices. Normally I'll be very aggressive in securing Super Luxuries which can help with the cash needed to crash research.

So it's not necessarily the case that the Securans can crash a lot more research than the Quameno, and so the Quameno keep their significant research advantage. The Securans are still amazing though.

Also did you cancel the protection agreements when the Pirates left? I sign up only for the short durations where it's needed which saves plenty of cash even though the rates go up.



Kayoz -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/20/2014 4:37:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

...about 20 (yeah I know laugh) high tech research labs at the start and only 1 of the others. ...


[image]http://www.detroitlionsblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/facepalm-lion1.jpg[/image]



Miyuki -> RE: Securans best race for peaceful expansion / tech game? (12/22/2014 2:11:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miyuki
999 research cost and no tech trading.


One would be hard pressed to set up a game less advantageous to technology oriented races. Considering that the default is 120k, increasing research to 8x the normal cost gives you an incredible advantage.

That said, I'm not sure how your strategy would compare with Securans, using their incredible growth and economic base to crash research all the time.


Yes, the main reason for this is to ensure the galaxy is hard pressed when the new boys reveal themselves. I like to watch their progression and dont get in their way too much until they have established several planets.

Crashing as a quameno isnt much of an issue for me prior to tech 5. My core planets are able to sustain 40 to 50 percent tax. i saw reference to taxing over 50 here, i was under the impression there was no gain past 50.



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