I give up...again (Full Version)

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76mm -> I give up...again (12/9/2014 8:08:21 PM)

I had put this game on the shelf for several months after playing through the Barbarossa and Pacific scenarios, thought I would try the Global scenario.

But I couldn't get past the set up...the US set up seemed to go pretty much normally, but for some reason none of the countries after the US had any units to set up, or anything--I just clicked the "next phase" button. Until I got to Japan, when it said that I was in violation of the US trade agreement, because of lack of convoys. Unfortunately, as Japan, I wasn't provided with any convoys, or any other units of any kind, to place on the map.

Is this WAD?

I know that there are the fast start set ups, but I want to use different optional rules and frankly don't think it should be such a challenge just to set up the game...



paulderynck -> RE: I give up...again (12/9/2014 8:23:16 PM)

It is not WAD. I just tried starting a new game and everything worked normally. The only thing I can think of is: did you click end of phase when the Scrap Units screen was up, instead of OK-Done?



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/9/2014 8:50:44 PM)

No, the scrap units screen never even came up other than for the US, it just cycled through each of the countries without showing any units or any screens at all.

I've since started a new game and it seems to be working normally, but I have to say that this is not an easy game to fall in love with...



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 12:19:16 PM)

OK, now I've played pretty much through the end of the first turn, and can't advance out of the "Return to Base" phase--the advance button will not light up, even though I have cycled through all of the sea areas about three times to check if any ships still need to be returned to base--there are none.

I've spent about 40 minutes just trying to figure this out, any tips would be appreciated.



Centuur -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 2:01:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

OK, now I've played pretty much through the end of the first turn, and can't advance out of the "Return to Base" phase--the advance button will not light up, even though I have cycled through all of the sea areas about three times to check if any ships still need to be returned to base--there are none.

I've spent about 40 minutes just trying to figure this out, any tips would be appreciated.


There is still a unit which need to return to base. You can use the arrows in the command form to find the culprit...

Otherwise, if you post a saved game here, we can check if things are right. I haven't seen a problem in the return to base phase for a long time...



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 3:50:06 PM)

Thanks for your tip.

It was a Polish aircraft in the Baltic Sea. It did not show up when I cycled through my naval units, and I'm not sure how I was supposed to identify the unit holding up progress? I really find myself struggling with the interface at times--not that it is bad, but it really doesn't provide enough information sometimes.

I am also extremely frustrated with my lack of success with invasions. I played Guadalcanal 3-4 times, and don't think that I EVER had a successful invasaion, and so far my two attempts in this game have also failed. Mind you, these are against empty hexes, ie, only nominal defenders, and with max support from battleships. But I ALWAYS lose at least one unit, and that is usually all there is on the amphib. And I usually only have one amphib... Very frustrating...



Centuur -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 6:31:38 PM)

Invasions are a risky affair, even against empty hexes.

Generally speaking, always invade out of the three or four sea box in good weather and if the notional isn't out of supply, always invade with at least three units (division, marines and a cheap MIL or GAR).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 6:33:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Thanks for your tip.

It was a Polish aircraft in the Baltic Sea. It did not show up when I cycled through my naval units, and I'm not sure how I was supposed to identify the unit holding up progress? I really find myself struggling with the interface at times--not that it is bad, but it really doesn't provide enough information sometimes.

I am also extremely frustrated with my lack of success with invasions. I played Guadalcanal 3-4 times, and don't think that I EVER had a successful invasaion, and so far my two attempts in this game have also failed. Mind you, these are against empty hexes, ie, only nominal defenders, and with max support from battleships. But I ALWAYS lose at least one unit, and that is usually all there is on the amphib. And I usually only have one amphib... Very frustrating...

For invasions, try to bring as much help as you can. The number of land combat factors invading should have an equal number of shore bombardment points and ground support points. That will triple the attack factors in the combat.

Another element to consider is whether the hex being invaded is out-of-supply. In Guadalcanal you can usually do that by controlling the sea areas around the island so the enemy units cannot trace supply back to their primary supply source (in Japan/US/Australia/New Zealand/India).

Lastly, the terrain and weather for the hex being invaded can affect the attack odds. The 'notional' unit in an empty hex will also gain a combat factor if it is adjacent to a friendly corps/army sized unit.

While these rules seem complex at first reading, each one of them reflects an historical aspect of invasions. Think of all the naval and air power the Allies brought to bear for the Normandy invasion.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the invading land units should be in a high sea section box. In the lower boxes their strength gets decreased.



paulderynck -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 6:47:18 PM)

Like any other wargame, you can see what will attack, what will support the attack and what will defend. You do need to know the combat rules so you can be aware of items that will add or subtract from the attackers/defenders. Surprise, supply, weather and which sea box the invaders are in are the most important for invasions. Late in the game you have to watch out for long range LND4 (even flying extended range) that can show up and aid the defense, so the later in the game it is, the more important it is to have massive fighter superiority that can intercept defensive air power over the invasion hexes.

Knowing these things it is certainly possible to structure an "automatic" attack which is one where the odds are so high, success is guaranteed.

In other computer games, you blindly throw units at an objective and sometimes win and sometimes lose without knowing how the program figured that all out. In WiF, once you learn the rules, then you'll always be able to calculate the degree of risk involved for any attack.




76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 8:54:28 PM)

Thanks for the tips on invasions.

None of these invasions have been defended, or even next to an enemy unit, so I guess the hard part for me to understand is how a hex defended by something presumably well less than a division cannot be taken by a full corps with massive naval arty support... On D-Day, each of the well-defended beaches was hit by a corps, and none of them was successfully defended.

Anyway, I guess it is what it is. This game has a lot of very interesting aspects, including a very devoted fan base, but it is so different from anything else I've played it is taking me a LONG time to get my head around it...



brian brian -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 9:45:12 PM)

It must be the sea box # you tried invading from. The boxes represent time, in a sense. A naval unit that departs a port very far from it's designated operations area will have little time to patrol that area (from 3 zones away an AMPH would be in the 1 or 2 box). A naval unit that patrols just off-shore of the port it starts in could have large amounts of time on patrol.

For invading forces, this would represent time at sea for the infantry that actually assaults the beach. D-Day was done only a few hours sailing time from the ports of departure, as much as possible. The only invasion attempted in the war from a long distance away was a small portion of the Torch landings.

An AMPH that leaves port directly into the surrounding sea zone would be in the 3 or 4 box. If an invading unit starts on a naval transport of some type in the 2 box, the notional defending unit resisting the landing is given one strength point _for each such invading unit_ - effectively doubling it's strength, or more, potentially. These penalties are worsened in Rain weather, before a further penalty in the land combat process.

Also there is a combat penalty for attacking a jungle hex. US Marines and Japanese infantry units are exempted from this, iirc



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/10/2014 10:02:48 PM)

Yeah, IIRC, the latest couple invasions have been from Seabox 1, so I guess that hasn't helped. I guess I should invade some closer neighbors.



Zorachus99 -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 1:56:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Yeah, IIRC, the latest couple invasions have been from Seabox 1, so I guess that hasn't helped. I guess I should invade some closer neighbors.



It's extremely important to understand how notional units work. I'd recommend doing some reading. Shore Bombardment and the amount of defense factors the notional actually gets is heavily dependent on the sea box.

From RAW, applies to paradrops, and naval invasions.

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.
The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
ï +1 if it is a city hex;
ï +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
ï +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
ï + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
ï -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
ï -1 if surprised (see 15.).
The shore bombardment modifier applies to each unit that invades. Use the modifier from the section of the sea-box the unit invades from (remembering the effect of weather ~ see 8.2.7).
These modifications are cumulative but the notional unit can never have less than 0 combat factors.
Add the notional unit’s combat factor to those of any land units in the hex. Then modify their total combat factors for terrain and weather.
The notional unit is treated like a normal unit for all purposes during combat except that they only have a ZoC into their own hex and are always face-down.
Resolve the combat normally. Any combat result (other than ‘-’) destroys the notional defending unit. It doesn’t count as a loss towards satisfying the combat result.
Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.



brian brian -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 2:32:33 AM)

On the up side though, attacking a notional unit gives the attacker a +1 to their die roll, which is why the defender is given a choice to include or not include the notional factors in the combat.

Generally a corps landing from a high sea-box against a single notional factor, in clear terrain and good weather, with shore bombardment support, will land successfully the vast majority of the time. But any military operation can go all FUBAR...



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 4:35:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
ï + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;


Not sure if I see the logic behind that one.

BTW, when I bought the game, I read through the manuals twice, but by now I've forgotten most of the details; I look up specific issues on as "as needed" basis, which is pretty often.



paulderynck -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 6:40:39 AM)

The shore bombardment modifier is just a name for the modifier to the defense that occurs when you don't invade from a high enough box.



alexvand -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 10:53:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
ï + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;


Not sure if I see the logic behind that one.



This represents the fact that if you launch an invasion from a low seabox you are launching a poorly planned, long shot invasion by ships that don't have a very big window to land troops, at the end of a weak supply line.

The lower seaboxes represent the fact that the units in those boxes are not on-station in that sea zone for very long. They're spending most of their time in transit.

Any invasion from a seabox lower than the 3rd seabox is risky at best. I typically plan all my invasions assuming my units will be in the 3rd seabox. Anything else is suicide.

Launching successful invasions and paradrops is one of the most complex elements of this game. It is also one of the most satisfying. There's nothing quite like launching a successful D-Day invasion where you actually succeed in taking multiple hexes along the French coast despite Axis defenders.



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 11:37:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d
This represents the fact that if you launch an invasion from a low seabox you are launching a poorly planned, long shot invasion by ships that don't have a very big window to land troops, at the end of a weak supply line.

That part makes sense, but if I'm reading that penalty correctly, you get penalized for having more naval arty support--no matter how poorly planned an invasion is, seems like having more arty would be a good thing (assuming you avoid friendly fire of course).



paulderynck -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 3:56:55 PM)

Not sure what you are reading. Numbers in sea boxes subtract from the shore bombardment factors of all ships present based on weather and how far up in the sea zone boxes they are. Given enough ships you can still add in enough shore bombardment to double the invaders (since you can't invade from the zero box). The numbers add to the defense value of notional units dependent on weather and the sea box an invading unit comes from.



alexvand -> RE: I give up...again (12/11/2014 8:59:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d
This represents the fact that if you launch an invasion from a low seabox you are launching a poorly planned, long shot invasion by ships that don't have a very big window to land troops, at the end of a weak supply line.

That part makes sense, but if I'm reading that penalty correctly, you get penalized for having more naval arty support--no matter how poorly planned an invasion is, seems like having more arty would be a good thing (assuming you avoid friendly fire of course).


The subtraction number decreases the value of ships attempting to shore bombard. Again, ships in lower boxes aren't on station long enough to add much combat value. So most of your cruisers have to be in at least the 3 box to add any shore bombardment in clear weather. Your battleships can often provide some value in lower boxes.

You use the same bombardment factor to modify the value of the notional defender.

So two different effects using the same number. Both representing the idea that the sea box represents time on station.



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 4:32:19 AM)

I have to say that I'm encountering quite a few bugs, or what seem to be bugs, including:
--map screen turning white/game freezing,
--inability to advance from phases (one example-when placing Vichy units, all units placed but unable to advance phase),
--game locks up (I expect due to "second screen" issues, ie forms appearing somewhere off-screen);
--convoys coming off sentry status (yes, I check every time I place them).

Maybe some of these are user-error, rather than bugs, but in any event I don't think that the game should be locking up. In the last few hours of gameplay I've had to reload 5-6 times.

Honestly, this is rather disappointing; more than a year after release I expected a more stable game (and Netplay, single map scenarios, etc.).

I will keep plugging away; when the game works I like it, but it can be a real chore sometimes.



Zorachus99 -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 5:45:23 AM)

This game runs great in a virtual environment. It's 2D after all. The issues you report could be caused by many different types of issues, ranging from anti-virus to video drivers, and possibly 20 other things I didn't list.

Why not install a totally bland vanilla English Windows 7 Virtual Machine, and only put WIF on it? I have performed installs on many different types of PC's over the years, XP, Vista, Win 7, Win 8, and in almost all instances have had no issues with MWIF unless it was a a general release problem that everyone else was also subject to.

Kinda insane idea, but it would probably banish your bugs.

Good luck!



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 8:15:44 AM)

Ugh,thanks for the suggestion, but probably more trouble than dealing with the bugs (I don't know anything about virtual machines). I have to say that I've got a two monitor system working fairly well now, and that makes a big difference in playability. Another issue, although fairly minor, is that very often forms or the map does not update as the game progresses, and to get an update I have to resize the map or "wipe" the screen with another form.

I'm still slogging away, making tons of mistakes, but hopefully there will be a next game, and I'll have slightly more of a clue next time around.



Cataphract88 -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 9:26:43 AM)

I must say that this all sounds very fiddly for a game released in 2013!

And where are the patches? They seem to have dried up.



Courtenay -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 12:28:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cataphract88

I must say that this all sounds very fiddly for a game released in 2013!

And where are the patches? They seem to have dried up.

Steve is working very hard. There will at some point be more patches.



Numdydar -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 1:48:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cataphract88

I must say that this all sounds very fiddly for a game released in 2013!

And where are the patches? They seem to have dried up.


[:D]

I love this. Patches were coming out very frequently but that was reduced drastically based on feedback from this very forum [:)]

Instead we now have a system where about every 2-3 weeks a beta patch is released and then that becomes official about 2 weeks later. So now the patches are coming about once a month.

The last beta was found to have some issues so was not made official. According to what Erik has wrote there will be a new beta out to test NetPlay over the holidays by the community. Along with some other bug fixes.

Besides the last beta was released on 12/2 so not exactly what I would consider 'patches drying up'. [:)]



Cataphract88 -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 2:09:00 PM)

I don't tend to use the betas (after a few bad experiences), so the waits between patches seem a lot longer for me. [:)]



Centuur -> RE: I give up...again (12/12/2014 6:55:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I have to say that I'm encountering quite a few bugs, or what seem to be bugs, including:
--map screen turning white/game freezing,
--inability to advance from phases (one example-when placing Vichy units, all units placed but unable to advance phase),
--game locks up (I expect due to "second screen" issues, ie forms appearing somewhere off-screen);
--convoys coming off sentry status (yes, I check every time I place them).

Maybe some of these are user-error, rather than bugs, but in any event I don't think that the game should be locking up. In the last few hours of gameplay I've had to reload 5-6 times.

Honestly, this is rather disappointing; more than a year after release I expected a more stable game (and Netplay, single map scenarios, etc.).

I will keep plugging away; when the game works I like it, but it can be a real chore sometimes.


The Main from (Command Form), should be in the upper part of (one of the) screen(s), and not in the upper left corner of the screen it is on too. Keep it at the top middle part of the screen. If this form isn't at that positions, it is usually causing forms not to be shown. Also, sometimes during air to air combat, a screen doesn't appear. In almost all cases, that can be solved by pressing F10 and closing the form that than appears on screen. This forces the missing form to be displayed on top.

There is also a size for Windows which need to be correct (but if you haven't changed this on your computer, it isn't an issue).

Convoys going off sentry can happen when you merge or split convoys. I tend to check everything during the "stay at sea" phases, to make sure the convoy does what I want them to do. In that phase, you can check the way the convoy behaves in the main form.




76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/13/2014 5:49:43 AM)

Centuur, thanks much for the tips, particularly re the F10 key and merging convoys. I've kept the main form in the middle of the second screen (had read that somewhere else). Most of the "missing form" issues that I have seem to occur during the "Perform Mission" step of phases; I was not aware of the F10 trick and will try that next time.

Also, I have a question about stacking: I thought that land unit stacking was limited to two corps and a division, but somehow I was able to stack three corps in Osaka:
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/stacking.png[/image]

Is that right? Is stacking disregarded for corps on transports in port?



76mm -> RE: I give up...again (12/13/2014 6:47:00 AM)

Another crash...this time I had just finished the air transport phase and the game went into a tizzy, with the Sequence of Play form flashing in different colors/nationalities (this was Germany's turn) and the game going completely unresponsive...here are some screenies:
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/seq1.png[/image]
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/seq2.png[/image]
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/seq3.png[/image]
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/games/seq4.png[/image]

I have to say that this might be the most unstable game I've ever purchased, and I think that the focus should be on fixing stability issues before moving on towards NetPlay, much less the AI...



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