RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (Full Version)

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Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 7:59:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gorforlin

1st army u can move over the first turn

Good point

I was trying to leave most of the west wall stuff alone to see if it could be done.. That's why I only brought feldhernhalla and 1 fsj from SE france along with two corp hq's. The rest of the reinforcements were the mtn units and fighters from the EFB.
I also did not want to jam up the rail lines with too much stuff either.



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 8:00:00 PM)

Clean up, Aisle 5

[image]local://upfiles/20920/EA0B0191BEC346909712CB9D35C4F67F.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 8:01:40 PM)

Clean up Aisle 6

[image]local://upfiles/20920/6C35C50A82CC4D3499848F87E51716EE.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 8:02:46 PM)

Clean up Aisle 6 for real now

[image]local://upfiles/20920/797864BBDC474339BAADB78CB30635D1.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 8:08:00 PM)

So that's the end of my AAR.

I hope it shows just how good the logistics systems are.

Plus the Allies are not Gods in 1943. Sure they can land in France or wherever they want to, but its probably a really bad idea to do anything where you can not maintain air cover.

Open for questions and discussion on what went right and wrong 8)



MrLongleg -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 9:37:19 PM)

Very interesting. A couple questions:

- you talk about a new software patch - where can we get that?
- shouldn't divisions repulsed from a beach head be totally destroyed. They could reform, but all elements should be lost for the Allies, right?
- why wasn't there more damage to the invasion fleet, it sailed through 9 interdiction level and had NO losses? In reality they would have lost a bunch of ships...



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 9:45:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

Very interesting. A couple questions:

- you talk about a new software patch - where can we get that?
- shouldn't divisions repulsed from a beach head be totally destroyed. They could reform, but all elements should be lost for the Allies, right?
- why wasn't there more damage to the invasion fleet, it sailed through 9 interdiction level and had NO losses? In reality they would have lost a bunch of ships...


Thanks for your interest 8)
My understanding is that there will be a patch at some point next week.
The divisions that got killed on the beaches get reformed from new men in Ireland. If you have played WitE its pretty much the same mechanic as when a german unit surrenders and gets reformed. Hopefully the message in the combat report gets changed because I spent a while trying to find out where they retreated to.
1st infantry division the battle shows that everything was killed except for the bits from the ranger regiment that retreated successfully
The invasion fleet loss is a bug that will be fixed in upcoming patch.



comsolut -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 9:59:39 PM)

I'm not able to add to your points, as I have yet to grasp the intricacies of the engine.

I do applaud your efforts to test that the engine has some basis in reality.



Gorforlin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 10:41:28 PM)

It SHOULD be a major VP negative for allies, is what should be in patch not some thing silly.

I think your pushing the limit of Allied invasion options, but if your were saper the invasion would have stuck.

Try the same invasion again, but using what you have learn does not work.

WitE is all about turn 1-4 and rolling the snowball.

You have simply looked at one option and not the best option.

Try again vs yourself.

I KNOW YOU CAN DO BETTER.

its best for the game figuring this out now not 6+ months from now.




Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 11:26:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gorforlin

It SHOULD be a major VP negative for allies, is what should be in patch not some thing silly.

I think your pushing the limit of Allied invasion options, but if your were saper the invasion would have stuck.

Try the same invasion again, but using what you have learn does not work.

WitE is all about turn 1-4 and rolling the snowball.

You have simply looked at one option and not the best option.

Try again vs yourself.

I KNOW YOU CAN DO BETTER.

its best for the game figuring this out now not 6+ months from now.



WTF are you talking about Im pretty sure its WITW not WITE

I think it proves that if you are invading without air cover you have a pretty good chance of getting whacked.

The whole goal of the AAR was to see if an allied invasion without fighter cover could get crushed by germans without the need for bogus house rules.

What exactly are you trying to figure out?



Grotius -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 11:39:14 PM)

Great AAR, Bealfiin. Pretty illuminating. I tend to take for granted Allied air superiority, but your AAR reminds us that the Axis has aircraft too, especially in 1943.

No need to run it again as far as I'm concerned!

Incidentally, I hadn't thought of trying a solitaire game. That would be a great way to learn, wouldn't it.



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/13/2014 11:53:03 PM)

Thanks Grotius

It was a lot of work playing both sides, but I was fueled by lots of Mountain Dew and a burning desire to see if the Luftwaffe could get the job done. I think with some better timing and some different invasion spot choices it would be better for allies. But at the end of the day I don't see any good strategic reason to risk the whole game trying to get into northern Italy early. The allies don't have the unit count to really push a whole bunch on a wide front. I think it would be very dangerous to get into southern France in 43 as well. I may be wrong I haven't tried it. Lots of neat stuff to try now.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/14/2014 12:14:47 AM)

Thanks for the AAR, this clearly shows WitW will be all about the air game, players who master the air game will shine in WitW. Thanks for putting in the time and effort. Do you think the outcome would have been different if the allies delayed a few turns while they consolidated the capture of airfields in Sardinia and Corsica first and got them up and running with lots of fighter air before hitting mainland Italy? Or is German air power simply too strong to overcome this early?

Jim



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/14/2014 1:42:01 AM)

Hey Jim

I think that if the Allies got some air control before they invaded the Germans would have had a hard time pushing them out. There was only one turn that the beach was not isolated, and it was never clear enough to get freight onto the beach. So when the Freight got used up the allied troops just withered. The other thing that I noticed is that the Germans were able to put almost 1k fighters and 1k bombers into the air over the landing zone. Until the last turn of the AAR when the p51's were able to fly and the other airbases got full of support and freight, the Luftwaffe owned the sky over the beach because of how many fighters they were able to put up. They last turn German air losses went up to 400 and allies were down to 200ish because the allied fighters were able to engage all the German naval patrols.
The sea control was going to switch to the allies in another turn or two, but that was going to be too late for the beachhead.

One other thing I forgot to mention was that the amphib HQ's were getting chewed up every turn. A second med landing was going to be delayed I think by the time they got repaired and prepped up.



Gorforlin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/14/2014 3:11:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gorforlin

It SHOULD be a major VP negative for allies, is what should be in patch not some thing silly.

I think your pushing the limit of Allied invasion options, but if your were saper the invasion would have stuck.

Try the same invasion again, but using what you have learn does not work.

WitE is all about turn 1-4 and rolling the snowball.

You have simply looked at one option and not the best option.

Try again vs yourself.

I KNOW YOU CAN DO BETTER.

its best for the game figuring this out now not 6+ months from now.



WTF are you talking about Im pretty sure its WITW not WITE

I think it proves that if you are invading without air cover you have a pretty good chance of getting whacked.

The whole goal of the AAR was to see if an allied invasion without fighter cover could get crushed by germans without the need for bogus house rules.

What exactly are you trying to figure out?


No need to pull a Pelton when people don't agree with you.

Seeing you agree with what I said in your post 42 "I think with some better timing and some different invasion spot choices it would be better for allies."
and " I think it would be very dangerous to get into southern France in 43 as well. I may be wrong I haven't tried it. Lots of neat stuff to try now."

Also Post 44 " I think that if the Allies got some air control before they invaded the Germans would have had a hard time pushing them out."

As with all games, we are in the early stages and people are just starting to push the air system, invasion system, logistics and replacement systems.

Like WitE you are showing what the edge of the invasion system is, shortly after me questioning you, you turned around and questioned yourself. Which is great as many of us can see the mistakes you made on BOTH sides of the coin.

When people question you, think first then throw around WTF's.

WitW is a mirror of WitE in many ways aka HQBU = Invasion system. It looks like both can be exploited under the current rule set to some degree.

Thanks for the AAR.

Jim D Burns: the air war is important early in the game, but the ground game is important also. I think baelfiin could have pushed back allies sooner with a better set-up, but then as he started the allies could have done better also.

Conclusion: Like WitE a highly skilled WA player can very quickly destroy and unskilled or lesser skilled GHC player using the invasion system.
Most German players before your AAR had no idea Normandy, Southern France or Northern Italy could be Invaded turn 4.

A much better move as WA would be to invade Normandy asap in 1943, you have air cover and can not be driven off the beaches.




marion61 -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/14/2014 2:59:37 PM)

In order to be successful invading Italy, above Rome, you need to secure Sardinia and Corsica (Corsica more so) Imo. Your aircraft from Sicily have to travel too far, and yes the axis has enough aircraft to take control of the seas. As soon as I capture Corsica I start expanding airbases because it can cover any invasion from Rome to Marseilles, and cannot be sunk. It all boils down to how well you plan, prepare, and your opponent.

This isn't a cover all list, it's just things that I prepare for before I invade. The player's handbook is extremely helpful too.

1. Don't set your recon (or naval patrols) over your future invasion sites every turn. If you do, it becomes evident where your landing. You can deceive the AI (not sure about a human yet ;)) as to where your landing.

2. I create a ground attack directive for my strategic bombers, and set it to bombing airfields. You destroy aircraft, and eventually they will be pulled back to bases further away. My strategic bombers (in Italy), I set to destroying rail yards and ports (I don't want them escaping that way).

This way a very good AAR. It definitely shows that the Allies are not invincible.

3. Make sure your Ranger and British SSF units get reattached to your amphibious HQ where you think your going to need them during the invasion.

4. Move your transport aircraft so they are in range, and move your paratroopers onto airfields close to them and set your paratroop targets.

LAS! Land, Air, and Sea. If you have these covered, the axis can hurt or slow down an invasion, but they won't destroy it, not from what I've experienced so far. The WA's have a lot of aircraft, and can easily control the skies over an invasion, if they are in range.

Excellent AAR. Shows that the WA's are not invincible.



Joel Billings -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/14/2014 11:45:23 PM)

Thanks a lot for this test AAR. It's very useful information. As for invading Normandy in 1943, I'm not so sure it's a good thing to do, but like any of these things, they need to be played out to see what can happen. We were happy to see the Allies thrown back. We are making some changes to make it less likely for Italy to surrender before September, and we're going to look at the shipping losses during the initial losses since Scott sent us a save. We expected it to be a little more painful right at the start given the Allies were driving through so many enemy controlled sea hexes.



KWG -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/15/2014 1:44:36 PM)

On a parallel....

I got in on the tail end of beta testing and conducted a non-air invasion of Sicily against AI. Turned off all allied air for the entire scenario. Took Messina in historical time. The AI never smelt blood and pounced.

I do not fault the AI, it's a type of strategy. In my current 43-45 from the start iam pulling 80% of planes into Germany and the rest into the lowlands and north Italy.

going deep without air cover maybe bad, hitting on the edges maybe not.



Baelfiin -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/15/2014 1:56:54 PM)

One of the cool things about this game is you are not forced to do anything.

As Allies You don't have to go to sicily first. You don't have to wait until June to invade in France. You are not forced to invade Normandy. You can try something different. On the flip side you are not forced into one way of defending. If you are playing the German side and the Allies do something different, you have the tools and freedom to respond.



Bamilus -> RE: Its a Pleasure Cruise to Northern Italy (12/15/2014 4:12:47 PM)

Cool experiment and nice AAR. Appreciate the detail and effort put into making this.



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