Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (Full Version)

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Smirfy -> Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 1:42:44 PM)


Dont know about the Americans but the British infantry had their organic transport even in France 1940 but I see in game they plod along just like our horse drawn Wehrmacht



carlkay58 -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 1:45:38 PM)

The <I can't recall the term they use> divisions only spend 5 MPs to do a deliberate attack and also have different MP costs/hex than non-motorized divisions. The problem is that they have organic transport but not enough to transport the entire division - usually only a single brigade/regiment.



Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 1:51:51 PM)


The divisions did not walk across the desert and I have never heard of British divisions running a shuttle. The Motor Brigade term is confusing because they tended to use half tracks, whilst the infantry did not fight from their trucks they used them to move not suffering as much fatigue as their German brothers. Churchill was famously critical of the fact there were nearly as mant drivers in the Anzio beachhead as infanrty. This game is turning into war in the 5th dimension rather than war in the West



IslandInland -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 2:13:32 PM)

I'm sure British infantry divisions were fully motorised but I don't have any evidence I can point to. It's just something I've always assumed.




Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 2:14:57 PM)

(after dunkirk) "The infantry division gained a regiment (battalion) of the reconnaissance corps, the MG battalion became organic, an LAA regiment was added and the brigade anti-tank companies removed. By 1944 the division had increased to about 18,400 all ranks and 3,350 vehicles, including 595 armoured carriers, almost 1000 radios, 1,262 LMGs, 40 MMGs, 436 PIATs, 110 anti-tank guns, 359 mortars, 72 field guns and 125 LAA guns."


I think one can safely say the Tommy did not walk



Baelfiin -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 3:00:39 PM)

You can choose to be motorized all the time if you wish ......

[image]local://upfiles/20920/8047F13A197044728C196EE42A9ECFE4.jpg[/image]



RedLancer -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 3:05:02 PM)

Not really - Tommy did walk in the main - British Inf Divs fought on foot. I suggest you read 18 Platoon by Sydney Jary.

The British were motorised in that they didn't use any horses but an Inf Div did not have enough organic lift to move the Infantry Sections around the battlefield in a truck. You will see in historic OOBs - Inf Bdes and Lorried Inf Bdes which had organic lift. As an aside WitW has a much more complicated approach to motorisation than WitE - you can permanently motorise some units (edit: as shown above)



Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 3:40:00 PM)


The British Army had a quaint regimental system and the unorganic lift would be provided by the Transport companies of the Royal Army Service Corps. If a unit was fighting say at Cassino the Transport companies would be ferrying supplies and the like, if it was expected they were going move the Transport companies would move them. Whilst organic transport did not cover the lift of the Division the higher HQ transport companies did. So for all intents and purposes the British infantry Division was motorized. Like I said there is a difference form fighting from trucks and half track like the motor brigades and having them for transport. What it boils down to game wise is that a British infantry division had the ability to move a great distance with little fatigue without jumping through hoops



RedLancer -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 4:18:11 PM)

As you say the Inf Div transport was not sufficient to move the Div independently therefore the Inf Div is not a WitW motorised unit by default. The game models the ability to motorize (and stay motorized)by drawing trucks from the pool. What's the problem?



Baelfiin -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 4:18:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


The British Army had a quaint regimental system and the unorganic lift would be provided by the Transport companies of the Royal Army Service Corps. If a unit was fighting say at Cassino the Transport companies would be ferrying supplies and the like, if it was expected they were going move the Transport companies would move them. Whilst organic transport did not cover the lift of the Division the higher HQ transport companies did. So for all intents and purposes the British infantry Division was motorized. Like I said there is a difference form fighting from trucks and half track like the motor brigades and having them for transport. What it boils down to game wise is that a British infantry division had the ability to move a great distance with little fatigue without jumping through hoops

3 clicks is a lot of hoops for sure.

I guess if the infantry was all motorized you would qq about that because it wouldn't be right fighting in close terrain ...



cmunson -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 5:23:26 PM)

quote:

The game models the ability to motorize (and stay motorized)by drawing trucks from the pool. What's the problem?
-Red Lancer


No problem here. Motorize and you have less trucks for logistic needs. Those are the kind of tradeoffs a player can decide for himself that few if any other games provide.

Regimental system may be "quaint" but it's worked for a few centuries now.

[image]local://upfiles/26498/3FE8C48743EB4AC1A703466A1BADFA3C.jpg[/image]



JeffroK -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 8:06:39 PM)

The DDay assault and follow up Divisions were severly stripped of Motor transport, so their arrival across the beaches should be as "foot infantry". Later their transport arrives so at some point a British Infantry Division should be able to carry its own troops on its own transport. Its WE included 595 Carriers, 881 15cwt Trucks, 1056 3 Ton Lorries, 205 Tractors (for guns?), 495 misc Cars & 983 motorcycles.
American Infantry Divisions did not have as much transport and had to use Corps units to completely transport its men & equipment.

At least you have the option ingame to motorise your Divisions.



Q-Ball -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 8:28:06 PM)

I haven't played enough to see, but do the western allies have "ample" truck pools to motorize several units if they choose? I would assume the answer is yes, but just wondering what it looks like in practice.

I would expect the Wehrmacht to be severely constrained in vehicle pool



cmunson -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 8:34:04 PM)

Yes, Allies have ample truck pools although if moving fast and far from rail/depots they can get soaked up quickly for logistics. Yes, Germans never have enough trucks but it gets easier as they fall back on their depots.



MechFO -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/20/2014 10:15:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris.munson

Yes, Allies have ample truck pools although if moving fast and far from rail/depots they can get soaked up quickly for logistics. Yes, Germans never have enough trucks but it gets easier as they fall back on their depots.


I'm finding that any kind of combat burns through German trucks very quickly. Even with only 15-20 divisions involved, low Allied Interdiction values (AI), not moving much and winning nearly every combat the Germans lose 5'000 to 8'000 trucks per turn.



Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 9:06:50 AM)


Are you losing 17,000 American "vehicles" and no British?



Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 10:20:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris.munson

quote:

The game models the ability to motorize (and stay motorized)by drawing trucks from the pool. What's the problem?
-Red Lancer


No problem here. Motorize and you have less trucks for logistic needs. Those are the kind of tradeoffs a player can decide for himself that few if any other games provide.

Regimental system may be "quaint" but it's worked for a few centuries now.




Im not realy sure your getting the quaint regimental system, If for instance a Division needed DUKWs becase they were fighting in the Scheldt they would get DukWs if they were fighting in the desert they would get Lorries if they were fighting in Burma they would get mules. It is a rare display of flexibility. The Transport Companies were physically there but they were not on a divisional OOB. Attachment would be more correct than taking from *supply* but then you lose a slot dont you and a German infantry division remains basically the same for game purposes does it not? No five minute staff conversations there. An example the Tank Transporters were also RASC and because the British supply trucks broke down in France at an alarming rate due to a mechanical design fault the RASC welded bars on the side of the Tank transporters and used them to transport supply. Those tank transporters dont appear on an Armoured division OOB but they are there!




RedLancer -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 10:45:11 AM)

There is only one vehicle pool for the Allies so there are no separate trucks for US, BR, CA etc.

I do get the quaint regimental system having worked within it for over 20 years. I understand your argument for use of the 3rd line supply companies and that is what the WitW system does. There is a trade off between movement and supply which is also reflected with shipping and trains.

Tank Transporters and DUKWs are arguably abstracted as a generic vehicles. What the system does not model is Kangaroos but we can't have everything.



Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 11:02:37 AM)


Now we are getting somewhere, Okay perhaps I should be clearer to get to the rub. We have a five minute Staff conversation at 21st Army Group. Wheras at OB West what do we do. "We are going to motorize your Division" Right okay sir what do I do with the horses? Do I give them to another unit, Do I set them free? Are you supplying trucks aswell for the Horses and the fodder? If we can get it past the RSPCA we can always slaughter and eat them but those kinda things play out bad propaganda wise. The *fact* is the motorization of an Allied division was not a problem to all intents and purposes that you can reflect in game they were motorized. Any problem with their motorization was logistical not physical. The differention of strategy involved deploying a German infantry division and Allied one were light years apart. This is one of the fundamental differences between the armies that should be reflected in game.



RedLancer -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 11:18:49 AM)

Can I suggest that before we continue this discussion you read Paragraph 14.1.3 in the Game Manual and Pages 13 and 51 of the Editor Manual - specifically the paragraphs titled Motorized/Non-Motorized and Motorization.

I think you may find that the differentiation already exists but perhaps not quite how you would like it to be.



Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 11:23:22 AM)


What does it say, I see a alot of caveats? In my games the Axis infantry divisions outrun mine even my armour no problem



RedLancer -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 11:30:34 AM)

For starters:

MOTORIZED / NON-MOTORIZED: Click on the
button that says ‘MOTORIZED’ or ‘NON-MOTORIZED’ to
change between four different levels of motorization:
§§ 0 - NOT MOTORIZED - No additional trucks.
§§ 1 - MOTORIZED - Trucks as standard.
§§ 2 - MOTORIZED (Temp 1 Turn). Unit has additional
trucks but will hand them back to the pool after
1 turn.
§§ 3 - MOTORIZED (Temp Multiple Turns). Unit has
additional trucks and will retain the trucks until
de-motorized by a player.
The precise impact of the motorization state that results
is dependent on the TOE of the unit. This is because
the level of Motorization that a particular OB is able to
attain is set in the OB Tab. For example a German Inf
Div will only receive additional trucks for supply whilst
a British Infantry Div can become Truck mounted. The
level of Motorization will affect the supply numbers.

If you look into the data the precise impact of motorization on a German and British Infantry Divisions is different!




Smirfy -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 1:41:47 PM)


Thank you for the information. Forgive me I find the PDF manuals hard to read on screen and waiting for the physical one. So let me get this correct unless I motorise, a German infantry division horses and all moves the same as an Allied one and with the same fatigue penalties and deploys the same and is essentially the same.



RedLancer -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 2:39:04 PM)

They may appear superficially the same but under the bonnet they are different. Combat is different as the TOE is different. Most importantly the logistical requirements are significantly different as are the rules for getting freight from depots.

Normally vehicles are used for the delivery of supply and replacement to units from depots. For non-isolated units, German and type (0) non-motorized Allied units (a BR Inf Div is not one of these) can receive supply and replacements from a depot without having to use vehicles up to 3 hexes from the depot through the use of animal drawn transport. However, this will cost double the freight being delivered as the animal drawn transport is assumed to be consuming fodder (if the unit is isolated, it receives the delivery but does not pay double freight). As an exception to the above, Western Allies units within one hex of a depot get deliveries from that depot without having to use vehicles from the depot or paying the double freight cost. In this case it is assumed that organic vehicles from the unit are going and getting the freight themselves.

As supply impacts MPs there is a inherent difference in movement capability.



ogre -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 3:36:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


What does it say, I see a alot of caveats? In my games the Axis infantry divisions outrun mine even my armour no problem



LoL: "I think it is because we [Germans] are retreating faster than they [Allies] can advance"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWQxk9aCmBc



Montbrun -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 4:35:22 PM)

For game purposes, It was decided that, if a unit did not possess organic transport, it would be represented as a "leg" unit, with the in-game ability to "motorize" the unit, as explained above.

British / Commonwealth / British Allied Infantry Divisions were not motorized, although they had a higher degree of mechanization than their German or Italian counterparts. These were essentially "leg" units, with all of their artillery and supply assets motorized. It took one RASC Truck Company to lift one Infantry Brigade for transport. These RASC Companies were held by higher headquarters (Corps and above). The exception to this (and there always is one) is the 2nd New Zealand Division, which possessed organic transport. The Divisional organization for this unit was a left-over from the experimental "Mixed" Divisions.

The US Infantry Divisions were also not motorized, but with a higher degree of mechanization that their German or Italian counterparts. The US had experimented with a "Motorized Division" organization during 1941-1942, but had decided against it, because the Division required as much shipping as an Armored Division, without the combat benefits. US Infantry Divisions were also lifted using US Quartermaster Corps Truck Companies, controlled by higher headquarters.

Brad



JeffroK -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 8:41:51 PM)

Brad,
I'm not sure you are correct. A British Commonwealth Infantry Division had 3 RASC Infantry Brigade Companys as part of its WE.
joslen.Orders of Battle 2WW p 130/131

The NZ Div WE came from its lack of confidence in British Armour, coincidentally the British Army tried the Mixed Division format.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Were not the British Infantry divisions motorized? (12/21/2014 8:54:46 PM)

The RASC Companies weren't always assigned to each brigade and their primary task was not troop transport. They also had to transport all of the logistical commodities for the division. In this, they are similar to the current US Army Light Infantry Battalions which have an organic FSC (Forward Support Company). Sure, the FSC can haul the infantry battalion but it can't haul the battalion's 3 day supply of ammunition, fuel, parts, rations at the same time it hauls the troops. Short term movements - okay. Long term motorization - need more assets from higher command.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Brad,
I'm not sure you are correct. A British Commonwealth Infantry Division had 3 RASC Infantry Brigade Companys as part of its WE.
joslen.Orders of Battle 2WW p 130/131

The NZ Div WE came from its lack of confidence in British Armour, coincidentally the British Army tried the Mixed Division format.





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