RE: Effects of EW (Full Version)

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brian heard -> RE: Effects of EW (1/13/2015 1:07:57 PM)

In game terms, I believe we need to lower the power of the OCEM or implement HOJ as OCEM is too powerful as it currently is. Case in point : I setup a Scenario with a full SA-23 battalion and supporting radars, along with an SA-11, SA-15 and SA-19. This was against 1 x EF-111 Raven with OECM on full time.

None of the SAM sites were ever able to get a radar lock on and I manually flew the Spark Vark right over the top of the various sites.
When I dropped lower the SA-11 did fire a shot using it's video camera (which is really cool), but never a radar guided shot.

At some point in time the SA-23 9S32M Grill Screen / 9S32 High Screen engagement radar should be able to burn through the jamming (esp. since the AN/ALQ-99E only had 10 transmitters and the two man crew put a high workload on the system.

Since a SOJ platform usually uses high gain, directional antennas, the jamming antenna must not only be pointed at the victim radar, but there must be alignment of radar, targets, and SOJ platform for the jamming to be effective.



DWReese -> RE: Effects of EW (1/13/2015 6:42:20 PM)

I've mentioned this before, but it bares mentioning again; when planes, even my OCEM Growler, enter an area covered by Offensive mobile jammers (such as what Iran has) the net result is that they often get killed somewhere between the 20-40 mile range. It doesn't matter which SAM platform is doing the killing, either. The mobile jammer is able to jam the Growler (or any plane for that matter) and when the SAM attack on the plane occurs, the plane is almost always destroyed because the mobile jammer keeps the Growler from being able to defend itself (no defensive modifiers are applied) and you get a straight-up attack at whatever the percent is for the SAM.

Now, is that the way that it should be, I don't know. Now, if the mobile jammers are present, I tend to keep the Growler farther than 40 miles away. That doesn't help the ground attackers because they still have to close the range to fire their GBUs. The only way around it is is to destroy all of the SAMs before you get there, but you can never be sure that you are doing that.

The reduction of the Growler's defenses doesn't always take place. Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. But, when it does, it's devastating.

Doug



brian heard -> RE: Effects of EW (1/13/2015 8:31:57 PM)

I just tried adding a Russian Paint Bin Jammer, but it did not help. the 1 Spark Vark Jammed everything within a 100 mile radius.
I think there needs to be an inverse square rule to limit the jamming effectiveness.



DWReese -> RE: Effects of EW (1/13/2015 9:51:31 PM)

I believe that the ground-based offensive jammers simply eliminate the plane's defensive modifiers, which is a HUGE deal. Try a quick scenario with that, and with the plane's jammers turned OFF. That way you will know what the ground-based jammers do.

I'm not sure about your Spark Vark, but the Growler IS picked up by all defensive radars, for the most part, and the defensive SAMs (S-10s) are able to shoot at it, and it does resolve the attack (which I watch.) Initially, the Growler (with an ACE pilot) easily defeats the SAMs. This ISN'T because the ground units can't see the Growler; it is because the Growler is too far away. At mid-range the Growler is also able to be picked up, but usually escapes the SAMs. But, getting too close, in that 20-40 mile range, is when that ground jammer kicks in, and it eliminates the defensive modifier for the plane. The Growler goes down.

So, my Growler is strong, but not as strong as your Spark Vark. Try adding a few different SAMs, mobile jammers, etc., to your scenario and see if you end up with the same results.

Doug




JRyan -> RE: Effects of EW (1/13/2015 10:58:24 PM)

Guys this is good stuff....keep a typing!



cf_dallas -> RE: Effects of EW (1/14/2015 12:25:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JRyan

Guys this is good stuff....keep a typing!


And definitely post saved games showing the noted behaviors.



DWReese -> RE: Effects of EW (1/14/2015 12:54:35 AM)

I replaced my Growler with the Spark Vark. I left the mobile jammers.
I approached and from 70 miles outI went active with my radars from my F-16s in an effort to draw fire from an S-300 bn. It worked.
The F-16s responded by firing off 4 HARMs and dove for the earth.
The Spark Vark then turned on its radar, and its OECM jammer.
The Grumbles that had been fired at the F-16s all went blind and all died. I don't know if it was the altitude change or the jamming.
The Spark Vark isn't as good as the Growler, and is definitely more directional than the Growler, but still managed to mask much of the approaching attacking AC.
From about 17 miles away the S-300 got good looks at the HARMs and began firing away at them. At the same time the S-300 fired away at the Spark Vark, and the F-16s. They fired EVERYTHING, all 24 missiles.
The OpFor also activated the Iranian Mobile Jamming units that I had given to that side.
The Grumbles did a good job of hitting the HARMs. But, as soon as they were fired at any of the incoming planes, they went blind and died. Grumble after Grumble died almost immediately after being fired.
Since none of the Grumbles ever made it to the planes I don't know what the effect of the jammers would have been.
Eventually one of the HARMs knocked out that S-300.
Another S-300 then started firing at the planes. The Spark Vark was now about 25 miles away. The F-16s were a little further away.
The F-16s returned fire at that S-300 with HARMs.
Two of the Grumbles that were fired at the Spark Vark managed to get an attack in on the plane. At no time did the plane make any type of evasive move, and the Spark Vark was destroyed
It's my opinion that the mobile jamming unit was responsible for the Spark Vark's inability to see the Grumbles.
The HARMs destroyed the second S-300, and the incoming AC destroyed their objective, the buildings.

I then replayed the entire scenario, but this time removed the mobile jammers. Everything again happened just as before. The Spark Vark jammed things as it should, etc.
The one surprise, however, was that the Spark Vark was again destroyed WITHOUT taking any defensive action. It did have its radars and jamming on, but still took a missile hit as if it were being offensively jammed. But, it wasn't.

I replayed the scenario again, and again, and again. I then replayed it again, again replacing the Spark Vark with the Growler.
In all of those replays the plane always got the benefit of its defensive modifier UNLESS it had its radars off, or was being offensively jammed. Since it wasn't, it always defended itself.

My only explanation is that there must be some kind of randomizer that exists that OCCASIONALLY keeps a plane from seeing the incoming missile, regardless of whether its own radar is on or not.

I'd love to hear the thoughts from others on this topic.

Doug



cf_dallas -> RE: Effects of EW (1/14/2015 1:03:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I'd love to hear the thoughts from others on this topic.

Doug



Good story... saved game?



Galahad78 -> RE: Effects of EW (1/14/2015 9:20:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Mike,

The ONLY reason that I asked about it was because the button afforded you the option of turning on or off. The game made it seem as if it was something that it wanted the gamer to do; turn it off or turn it on. It seemed like it was an option. Like you said, if it is automatic, then it probably shouldn't even be listed as an option.

Doesn't matter now, since I know that it is done internally.

Doug


Yeah sorry. You're the first to mention it really bothered you. We'll fix it but in the meantime just go with the flow[:)] It doesn't stop you from doing anything with the game

Mike




In fact, I would prefer to have the control of turning DECM on / off on my own hands (I know better than the AI [:D]). Perhaps I want to set up a trap with a radiating bait (ship, aircraft) and thus need it to be electronically lit up as a Christmas tree [:D].

Even more clear, DECM is actively used in BVR air-to-air to deny first-shot capability to the enemy.



Galahad78 -> RE: Effects of EW (1/14/2015 9:23:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I replaced my Growler with the Spark Vark. I left the mobile jammers.
I approached and from 70 miles outI went active with my radars from my F-16s in an effort to draw fire from an S-300 bn. It worked.
The F-16s responded by firing off 4 HARMs and dove for the earth.
The Spark Vark then turned on its radar, and its OECM jammer.
The Grumbles that had been fired at the F-16s all went blind and all died. I don't know if it was the altitude change or the jamming.
The Spark Vark isn't as good as the Growler, and is definitely more directional than the Growler, but still managed to mask much of the approaching attacking AC.
From about 17 miles away the S-300 got good looks at the HARMs and began firing away at them. At the same time the S-300 fired away at the Spark Vark, and the F-16s. They fired EVERYTHING, all 24 missiles.
The OpFor also activated the Iranian Mobile Jamming units that I had given to that side.
The Grumbles did a good job of hitting the HARMs. But, as soon as they were fired at any of the incoming planes, they went blind and died. Grumble after Grumble died almost immediately after being fired.
Since none of the Grumbles ever made it to the planes I don't know what the effect of the jammers would have been.
Eventually one of the HARMs knocked out that S-300.
Another S-300 then started firing at the planes. The Spark Vark was now about 25 miles away. The F-16s were a little further away.
The F-16s returned fire at that S-300 with HARMs.
Two of the Grumbles that were fired at the Spark Vark managed to get an attack in on the plane. At no time did the plane make any type of evasive move, and the Spark Vark was destroyed
It's my opinion that the mobile jamming unit was responsible for the Spark Vark's inability to see the Grumbles.
The HARMs destroyed the second S-300, and the incoming AC destroyed their objective, the buildings.

I then replayed the entire scenario, but this time removed the mobile jammers. Everything again happened just as before. The Spark Vark jammed things as it should, etc.
The one surprise, however, was that the Spark Vark was again destroyed WITHOUT taking any defensive action. It did have its radars and jamming on, but still took a missile hit as if it were being offensively jammed. But, it wasn't.

I replayed the scenario again, and again, and again. I then replayed it again, again replacing the Spark Vark with the Growler.
In all of those replays the plane always got the benefit of its defensive modifier UNLESS it had its radars off, or was being offensively jammed. Since it wasn't, it always defended itself.

My only explanation is that there must be some kind of randomizer that exists that OCCASIONALLY keeps a plane from seeing the incoming missile, regardless of whether its own radar is on or not.

I'd love to hear the thoughts from others on this topic.

Doug



Just guessing now, could the S-300 version you used in that battery have the Homing-On-Jammer capability?



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