Who says the Italians have to surrender? (Full Version)

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Davekhps -> Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 4:12:59 PM)

Heck, they don't even have to leave Sicily...



[image]local://upfiles/36818/78CF12007CF745819E48979E55DFF782.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 4:15:28 PM)

Hehe Allies never invaded?



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 4:37:19 PM)

This must've either been a really boring game, or really exciting one.



jnpoint -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 4:37:47 PM)

How can you be that lucky? :)



Davekhps -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 4:48:29 PM)

This was against the AI on normal, of course, but on the first turn I pushed everything that could move to Sicily, with the exception of the Luftwaffe which I relocated to safety in Germany. I then dug in like an Alabama tick as the Allies futilely bashed against my now-impenetrable redoubt. In the defense, I sacrificed many brave Italians and far fewer Germans (we all know the Italians were just itching to surrender, so might as well make them fight as long as they can!)

Come January '44, I had enough strength on the island to sink it beneath the waves, so I transferred the LW to the south and broke through the Allied lines, sweeping them off the island in a few turns.

Now, at any point a Salerno-type landing on the boot would have trapped everything and defeated me, but I safely presumed the AI routines were not flexible enough to adapt to a forward defense of the island. Not one step back!

[image]http://oi60.tinypic.com/6til37.jpg[/image]



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 4:49:43 PM)

Ha, try this against a human at your own peril.



Davekhps -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 5:13:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Ha, try this against a human at your own peril.


Heh, I may be dumb, but I ain't stupid! [:D]



jnpoint -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 5:33:33 PM)

Funny, I have played 15 turns and the allies are stuck. They can't pass my defense line around Catania. And just now in turn 15 they attacked Sardinia. I don't know if the AI is following a certain plan, but it seems to.



Smirfy -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 5:54:00 PM)

I did mention Allied Artillery weren't working especially against second rate troops :D



HMSWarspite -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 8:32:55 PM)

Will you PLEASE explain your issue or stop putting it in every thread on this board!



Joel Billings -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 8:58:23 PM)

Well, the fundamental problem is that Battleground Italy uses the basic Campaign 43 AI, but the AI doesn't have the same resources available. We've already been trying to fix a problem where the AI doesn't invade mainland Italy in that scenario. The 1.00.08 had one fix, which fixed some but not all cases of non-invasion. We made another change that will be in the next patch. The fundamental problem is that the AI withdraws forces to prep for a later invasion but manages to come up short of the required number of divisions so it doesn't invade. So we've lowered the requirements in BG Italy with the hope that since the Germans have less to work with as well, the AI may be able to get away with a weaker invasion.

However, playing at Normal level is not advised for experienced players playing on the defensive side (the attacking AI can always use some help). You may be looking at another case of the AI not invading as it didn't have the required forces, but it wasn't smart enough to see how weak it was in Sicily relative to your forces. Did it ever invade Sardinia or Corsica? If you post a save from late December I can take a look and see if it was building for an invasion, which would happen with the lower requirements that will be in the next patch. You can post here or email it to 2by3@2by3games.com. The best thing the AI could do in your case is to carry out it's Italy invasion and get the rest of it's combat power into the game threatening your supply lines. This would have happened in the 43 campaign game.



prinzeugen -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 10:26:12 PM)

Was there any play testing to this game? The AI is useless. I let the Allies take Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica, and for the rest of the game it just sat there doing nothing but bombing.
It's a cop-out by the designers to say "play at higher difficulty levels"... I assume that the "Normal" difficulty level is the historical one? If you have to give the AI a bunch of an unhistorical advantages
to even play the game, then the game is no longer in any way, shape, or form, a historical simulation. You might as well be playing Panzer General or Risk. I expect more for $100 !
If you can design an AI that can beat any human player at Chess, you can design a much better AI for this game--especially for over $100!




HMSWarspite -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 10:40:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: prinzeugen

If you can design an AI that can beat any human player at Chess, you can design a much better AI for this game--especially for over $100!



I am afraid you are SO offline there I don't know where to start. Chess, a game with 16 pieces a side where half the pieces have a choice of 3 moves max each turn, the consequences of each move are 100% predictable, and only one piece moves per turn. WitW... a game where none of the above applies!



Davekhps -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 10:48:51 PM)

Thanks Joel... save game sent.



marion61 -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/29/2014 10:50:47 PM)

You really want a game, play human's. The AI is what it is, and it's not a true thinking being, yet. Don't get frustrated, just try something different.



Joel Billings -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/30/2014 12:46:36 AM)

The AI was designed for the Campaign 43 scenario. We tried to make adjustments in the AI for the smaller scenarios as we got various reports from testers. In testing we had a lot of trouble getting the AI to consistently invade in the 43 scenario. We must have found 10 different reasons why the AI could confuse itself and not invade in the campaign, let alone the smaller BG Italy scenario. We finally think we have the AI managing to invade Italy in the Campaign 43, but since this didn't happen until late in development, I don't think we ever got a tester report about not invading in BG Italy after the fixes to the campaign. IIRC, in our last AI vs AI tests the invasions were happening in BG Italy.

Now that we've gotten player reports on the non-invasions, we've tried to make changes to the AI to get it to play better in BG Italy. It's unfortunate because a lot of players start with Husky and then move on to BG Italy and if they put up a good fight, they can put the AI into a position where it won't invade. The next update should be less likely the Allied AI won't invade Italy.

Making an AI for a game of this complexity and with this many strategic options is not easy. Chess is more like checkers when compared to WitW's complexity (of map, unit types, options).

I suggest you try a different scenario until we improve the BG Italy scenario AI, but realize that even with the improvement, once you understand the game you should give the attacking AI some help. If you find the same problem of lack of invasions in the Campaign 43, please send us a save in late November of 1943 (we have enough from BG Italy now).



Gilmer -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/30/2014 12:52:10 AM)

Alabama ticks ain't got nuthin' on Kentucky ticks, let me tell ya, from experience!!!



Numdydar -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/30/2014 4:16:18 PM)

lol. We have had the same discussion over on the WitP forums (and probably every forum for every computer game ever made [:D]).

If you want a good game against Japan in WitP you cannot contest every island and area. You need to 'let' the AI as Japan overrun the historically captured areas (or even longer, say June '42) before fighting back. Otherwise it is too easy to 'break' the AI. I would suspect the same would apply here for WitW.

So if you want a good game against the Allied AI, let it have space to invade Italy. Leave the toe open as an example. Or take the Germans out of Sicily and just leave the Italians as examples. Once the Allies invade, then you can start playing for 'real'.

The current level of advancement of AI is about the level of a 2 year old. Why people think a small company can develop an AI on the same level as Big Blue which took IBM (a fortune 500 company) millions and years to develop. You expect this for a $100 game? Really?

If 2by3 or Matrix could (and did) develop an AI that could play ANY game at the same levels Big Blue could have they certainly would not be making these games any more [:'(] They would all be on a beach somewhere enjoying the billions they made from developing an AI that could play any game as good as a human. So the expectations need to lowered down a lot of what to expect from the AI in this game (and all other games as well).

If the AI performance bothers anyone that much, then you need to play MP as that is the only way you will be happy with the game.



rroberson -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/30/2014 11:14:08 PM)

This is precisely why I am working to learn the game mechanics so I can play against others...

...playing with yourself is boring anyway :P



cmunson -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/30/2014 11:30:17 PM)

quote:

Well, the fundamental problem is that Battleground Italy uses the basic Campaign 43 AI, but the AI doesn't have the same resources available. Joel Billings


In the 43 Campaign the Allied AI makes staying long on Sicily as Axis untenable with their air interdiction. They clobber the ports not allowing supplies in and then put down heavy interdiction on the Axis occupied hexes forcing strong German stacks to retreat. I've not played BG Italy so can't comment but situation outlined in these posts not typical in the campaign game.



marion61 -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/30/2014 11:33:54 PM)

I guess that depends on what your doing![:D]



Davekhps -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (12/31/2014 2:17:03 AM)

For the record, I am **not** complaining about the AI. I did not nor would I expect that AI to be flexible enough to deal with a forward defense of Sicily.

Now, of course, I'd love it if the AI *was* aggressive enough to deal with such a situation, but I can't blame it for not being able to address my little stunt. I know it's NOWHERE near a human competitor.

That all said... yup, AI on normal, you sure as heck can push plenty of tin to Sicily and achieve a stalemate if you'd like.



prinzeugen -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (2/6/2015 5:00:41 AM)

I got the latest patch a few days ago and hoped for at least some AI improvement but if anything its even worse! Played D_Day start. German against AI. AI invaded Normandy but also southern France
--happened on Aug 15 but ok at least AI is invading... Probably not a good idea to have 2 major invasions at the same time --but ok... At least AI invading....
On 2nd turn Allied troops in SF
gone... This happens every time you play German vs AI D_Day start.
I get the impression that most of the people posting here haven't even tried playing German vs AI!
My point is not just that the AI is terrible.... But you cant even play German vs AI unless you just want a pointless, easy victory. I stopped playing after the 1st turn.
My point is: the AI does not work
. At least if you play Allied as AI.



Baelfiin -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (2/6/2015 6:34:21 AM)

on second turn what happen to allied troops? they disappear or did you kill them all?
So both invasions happened at same time? or was it Normandy in June and then southern France in august?
I'm sure the devs would like a little more information especially if troops are just disappearing =p



carlkay58 -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (2/6/2015 12:07:48 PM)

The Allied AI is MUCH harder to program than the Axis AI. The AI has always had trouble being the attacker, it tends to be a bit more cautious than a normal player would be. The usual rule of thumb is to give the Axis AI a 20% benefit down the line (i.e. Challenging) but the Allied AI should get a larger one (i.e. Hard) so that the AI will be more aggressive.



Joel Billings -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (2/6/2015 3:19:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: prinzeugen

I got the latest patch a few days ago and hoped for at least some AI improvement but if anything its even worse! Played D_Day start. German against AI. AI invaded Normandy but also southern France
--happened on Aug 15 but ok at least AI is invading... Probably not a good idea to have 2 major invasions at the same time --but ok... At least AI invading....
On 2nd turn Allied troops in SF
gone... This happens every time you play German vs AI D_Day start.
I get the impression that most of the people posting here haven't even tried playing German vs AI!
My point is not just that the AI is terrible.... But you cant even play German vs AI unless you just want a pointless, easy victory. I stopped playing after the 1st turn.
My point is: the AI does not work
. At least if you play Allied as AI.




We're very sorry about that D-Day AI bug. This was a bug introduced back in early January that screwed up the AI's first turn in the D-Day scenario (it doesn't make the historical D-Day landing and it tries to land in Southern France on turn 1). We have a version out to testers that fixes this bug. Aside from this new bug, we feel that we improved the Allied AI since release so that it will be sure to invade somewhere in Italy and we've improved the German AI to reduce it's warping out of pockets. If you have some other specific AI issues, it always helps to send us saves (at 2by3@2by3games.com) so we can use the save to see the AI in action.



prinzeugen -> RE: Who says the Italians have to surrender? (2/7/2015 5:27:25 AM)

both invasions happen on the 1st turn. the units in south france appear to just withdraw... I think it has something to with the way the AI calculates attrition....
It decides it cant support landing and leaves



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