RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West

Message

morganbj -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 1:37:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's. I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains. This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south. I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks. Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth. The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically. Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion. In your attempt to defend the air and logistical systems of WITW, you inadvertently show their weaknesses. First, I posit that if the Wehrmacht had 3 to 6 Panzer divisions loaded on trains somewhere in France on June 6th, there would not have been enough rolling stock to keep everything in supply. Furthermore, these would have been easy targets as they began to move. And, have you ever been involved in loading and unloading heavy equipment (tanks, assault guns, half tracks) off of rail cars? It takes more than a day to unload a division, even if one has a large unloading facility to do so. Those were bombed out of existence in the war. Can't do that in the game. No, in the game one can rail right up to the front and Bam! unload, even if there is no rail head and it's just in the middle of nowhere, and attack several times at full strength. Uh, huh. Sure, interdiction MAY have an impact, but I would argue that a few trains unloading several divisions that close would receive quite a bit of attention, if it were possible. No provision for that in the game, either. Second, please tell me which 4 months the 8th Air Force did not bomb Germany. I have included a listing of their missions for your convenience. Sure, the emphasis was on supporting the invasion preparation, but strategic bombing never did cease. Oh, and please tell me how I can have he 15th Air Force help with an invasion in Northern France. Should I move all the planes to France to help? Did the WA have to do that in real life, or did they continue the strategic campaign? Third, please tell me which bombing option breaks rail lines altogether. Interdiction/railway bombing only lasts the current turn, and bombing marshaling yards in cities is almost useless since they can be easily circumvented by taking alternate rail lines. If the WA could bomb a rail line and have it broken for a few turns, then I'd agree with your "bomb the railways" comment. I've not found the options available to be nearly as effective as you say. The point is that the air system is not "perfect." It is flawed. Some of that is because converting reality into electronic bytes always comes with compromises, but, part of it is that there is a bit of "play balance" that has been considered. If there were no interior bombing, what would be the effect on victory points, for example? The air system is what it is because of other game mechanics, including the movement/combat system. I agree that a more robust air campaign can help the WA, but the fact is that the Wehrmacht can just get too many assets too involved in combat in the first week. That's a fact.

Smirfy -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 1:47:35 PM)
20/21 357 Cologne, 22/23 596 Düsseldorf, 238 Brunswick, 24/25 637 Karlshrue 234 Munich 26/27 493 Essen 206 Schwienfurt 27/28 322 Friedrichshaven Bomber Commands raid post its April 14th transfer to SHAEF

Baelfiin -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 2:02:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bjmorgan quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's. I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains. This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south. I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks. Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth. The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically. Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion. In your attempt to defend the air and logistical systems of WITW, you inadvertently show their weaknesses. First, I posit that if the Wehrmacht had 3 to 6 Panzer divisions loaded on trains somewhere in France on June 6th, there would not have been enough rolling stock to keep everything in supply. Furthermore, these would have been easy targets as they began to move. And, have you ever been involved in loading and unloading heavy equipment (tanks, assault guns, half tracks) off of rail cars? It takes more than a day to unload a division, even if one has a large unloading facility to do so. Those were bombed out of existence in the war. Can't do that in the game. No, in the game one can rail right up to the front and Bam! unload, even if there is no rail head and it's just in the middle of nowhere, and attack several times at full strength. Uh, huh. Sure, interdiction MAY have an impact, but I would argue that a few trains unloading several divisions that close would receive quite a bit of attention, if it were possible. No provision for that in the game, either. Second, please tell me which 4 months the 8th Air Force did not bomb Germany. I have included a listing of their missions for your convenience. Sure, the emphasis was on supporting the invasion preparation, but strategic bombing never did cease. Oh, and please tell me how I can have he 15th Air Force help with an invasion in Northern France. Should I move all the planes to France to help? Did the WA have to do that in real life, or did they continue the strategic campaign? Third, please tell me which bombing option breaks rail lines altogether. Interdiction/railway bombing only lasts the current turn, and bombing marshaling yards in cities is almost useless since they can be easily circumvented by taking alternate rail lines. If the WA could bomb a rail line and have it broken for a few turns, then I'd agree with your "bomb the railways" comment. I've not found the options available to be nearly as effective as you say. The point is that the air system is not "perfect." It is flawed. Some of that is because converting reality into electronic bytes always comes with compromises, but, part of it is that there is a bit of "play balance" that has been considered. If there were no interior bombing, what would be the effect on victory points, for example? The air system is what it is because of other game mechanics, including the movement/combat system. I agree that a more robust air campaign can help the WA, but the fact is that the Wehrmacht can just get too many assets too involved in combat in the first week. That's a fact. The allies have the tools to get the job done vs. the German rail system. In all of Pelton's AAR I don't see very much interdiction and not much rail bombing. Maybe AWG can comment on the effects rail yard and railway bombing have had in our game, but it seems to me that it caused a lot of problems. If you don't wreck the German rail net then deserve to get a horde. BTW how many divisions rolled into Normandy from 6 June to 13 June? The Germans are not gonna just fade away because the Allies show up. It took 6 plus weeks to get a breakthrough in Normandy. I don't see why there should be an expectation that the Germans can't put up a fight.

RedLancer -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 2:10:05 PM)
@ bjmorgan I'm confused at your post as WitW does model both rail lines and rolling stock. Railyards 'produce' the rolling stock so the more they are damaged the less can be loaded and the greater the congestion on the network (i.e. more SMPs to move the same distance). The capability of a railyard effects the capacity of the co-located depot and this includes damage. As the freight movement is calculated last then less freight will be moved. Finally unloading costs more the further you are from a railyard. See One Page Guides # 11 & 12

Balou -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 2:37:08 PM)
You probably talk about "rules" in HvH. But in a game against an Axis AI ? As Joel stated, the AI cheats and I'd like to know how far it goes.

Baelfiin -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 2:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Balou You probably talk about "rules" in HvH. But in a game against an Axis AI ? As Joel stated, the AI cheats and I'd like to know how far it goes. I think you are misrepresenting what Joel said

Erik Rutins -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 3:46:30 PM)
Hi Mike, Unless we missed it, we still don't have a save file for this. Could you upload one for us please? Regards, - Erik

marion61 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:29:32 PM)
This is rail way interdiction. On some hits I'm showing +80,000SMP added to a rail hex. Put enough bombers on a few rail choke points and it won't matter if units rail around Europe and they won't be getting too much supply either. In this screen shot his defense was daunting, but with a little prep work behind his lines, having 8th AF set to bomb a two hex area of just his troops (3 separate grnd attacks), I broke his lines that turn. I killed almost a divisions worth of men on ground attacks, but after your break them any more ground attacks should focus on starving him so he cannot regain lost fatigue, or supplies. 2000+bombers in a 20 miles area is a lot of bombs, and this isn't counting my tactical air this was just my heavy bombers. Use the map, check out how much rail the lines saw. If your recon is good, they can be accurate, and if you see a crap ton of rail use on that line, shut it down for him. You bomb it in a small area and you can slow it to a trickle. [image]local://upfiles/39603/392B78D345B1402189F511382F633AFA.jpg[/image]

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:30:11 PM)
Again people simply are not using all the WA's tools in the tool kit. Carlkeys bombing of the possible invasion areas will have an effect. He also has 400+ VP's 100 are from my mistakes in garrison lvls turn 3. In all my other games the VP count is -. He also basicly completely wiped out the LW in just 20 turns. As far as leaving 3-6 divisions loaded up on rail cars read up on how rail systems work, generally speaking there are 3x as many box/flat cars in rail yards as there are moving. There is nothing going on in France from May 43 - May 44, loading up heavey equipment and leaving for months is nothing special. I have done PDM work for RR's so I know what I am talking about as far as rolling stock sitting in rail yards. Sure they are easy targets IF you know they are there and IF you bombing rail yards.

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:34:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meklore61 This is rail way interdiction. On some hits I'm showing +80,000SMP added to a rail hex. Put enough bombers on a few rail choke points and it won't matter if units rail around Europe and they won't be getting too much supply either. In this screen shot his defense was daunting, but with a little prep work behind his lines, having 8th AF set to bomb a two hex area of just his troops (3 separate grnd attacks), I broke his lines that turn. I killed almost a divisions worth of men on ground attacks, but after your break them any more ground attacks should focus on starving him so he cannot regain lost fatigue, or supplies. 2000+bombers in a 20 miles area is a lot of bombs, and this isn't counting my tactical air this was just my heavy bombers. Use the map, check out how much rail the lines saw. If your recon is good, they can be accurate, and if you see a crap ton of rail use on that line, shut it down for him. You bomb it in a small area and you can slow it to a trickle. [image]local://upfiles/39603/392B78D345B1402189F511382F633AFA.jpg[/image] nice job. As GHC its key to keep the front as short as possible. In this case the front is med size and requires allot of supplies ect. If the front is only 6 hexes like my games the front line units require very few supplies. So you put all armies on 1 and the front line army on 4. Again nice bombing and using all the tools in your tool kit. What turn is it?

marion61 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:40:56 PM)
TY! There's actually a magic number I've found that helps with making a successful invasion, depending on how many amphipbs your using. If your all bunched up that plays into the defenders hands. I like to open my invasions up and make you spread your forces to contain me, but hopefully not enough to seriously threaten a beachhead. The key is to find the magic number that allows your beaches to support one another, yet keep the defenders spread out enough so they cannot launch a good attack. The other thing is paratroopers. They are good at being elite speed bumps, so put them where they can slow his response to the beaches. Pick where you land carefully.

paullus99 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:47:18 PM)
So, when are we going to see a meklore / pelton AAR?

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meklore61 TY! There's actually a magic number I've found that helps with making a successful invasion, depending on how many amphipbs your using. If your all bunched up that plays into the defenders hands. I like to open my invasions up and make you spread your forces to contain me, but hopefully not enough to seriously threaten a beachhead. The key is to find the magic number that allows your beaches to support one another, yet keep the defenders spread out enough so they cannot launch a good attack. The other thing is paratroopers. They are good at being elite speed bumps, so put them where they can slow his response to the beaches. Pick where you land carefully. Good stuff. Yes what I have seen so far is poor invasion planning, poor invasion spots or to many invasion beachs that can not support each other + poor use of WA's air force.

marion61 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:53:56 PM)
I probably play no where near the level of Pelton. I've heard stories from his other victims as to his level of play.[:)]

Baelfiin -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 4:57:53 PM)
Meklore nice job with interdiction and blasting.

GrumpyMel -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 5:25:39 PM)
So in my game vs the A.I., where I also invaded Brittany (around St. Malo) and got a very aggressive response from the A.I., I've taken alot of Meklore's advice about air settings....and I'm starting to do much better in terms of weakening Axis ground forces, causing Axis casualties and expanding the beach-heads. This took a TON of tweaking and micro-management with the Allied air forces (much of it counter-intuitive, at least to me) to get decent results... the defaults the computer sets up for the Air Groups are NOT well setup to do the job of suppressing the Axis invasion response. I've had to.... - Shift a large portion of FB's over from Fighter to Bomber roles. - Change the HQ's and bases that many groups belong to, and redo this for some Groups and Bases each turn, as the computer seems to automaticaly change their HQ ownership back to the origional for some. - Change supply priorties for many of these bases (as many seem to get set to 0 upon opening them up). - Change the default loadouts for probably most groups. - Change the default altitude for almost all missions. - Switch away from using Ground Support to Ground Attack - Unit and Ground Attack - Interdict for most groups in support of the ground forces. These are not things which will be intuitive to a player new to the game/series... nor do I think they'll learn it anywhere except going to these forums and asking for (and hopefully getting) advice. Note, I do think the invasion response is too aggressive and too swift...particularly for games at the easier levels against the A.I. Perhaps this is in part due to the limitations of the scale of 1 week turns and the U-Go/I-Go system. Invasions should be able to benefit from a bit of a "surprise" factor to gain some initiative, some territory and put some follow up units ashore before the response comes. This may not be for a whole week...but certainly the uncertainty and mixed intel of whether it's a "real" invasion, a "fake out" or a Dieppe style raid should have the A.I (at least on Normal levels and below) second guessing and delaying it's response for at least a day or two with some important units.... meaning the A.I. shouldn't be utilizing their FULL movement rate even before accounting for interdiction due to uncertainty in dispatching units. I also really question whether invasions shouldn't take place in the Allied players turn (allowing them to put some follow up troops ashore and push inland a bit if local defenses aren't heavy) rather then the Axis logistics phase... which really surrenders the initiative to the Axis in terms of the invasion. Finally, I do question whether interdiction is effective enough in slowing movement.... knocking out massive quantities of critical bridges and rail lines....shouldn't be a shrug effort in terms of the Axis ability to get a large quantity of troops to the front, quickly, in response to an invasion.... and get everything repaired in 1 turn. At least for A.I. games I don't think the response should be so easy and aggressive and the ability to shrug off critical infrastructure damage so effective. Maybe for Human vs Human games... it makes sense, since you don't want the Axis to feel like a punching bag facing the inevitable with little it can do about it... but for the A.I., that shouldn't be a consideration. YMMV. Edit: P.S. forgot to offer a big thank you to Meklore for the advice on air settings....it really makes a big difference.

Smirfy -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 6:03:10 PM)
Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that.

Baelfiin -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 6:23:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that. 3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense

marion61 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 6:28:49 PM)
Not all those units are divisions either, they are regiments and he's had two months to bring units in. When I landed I cut the peninsula off in two turns at Lorient cause he couldn't get enough forces in to stop me. Plus I landed in mid May and it took me until mid-July to get those 3 major ports taken, the other nazis infestations removed from my rear areas, and to have enough lift capacity so my depots start showing surplus storage. I didn't press the attack on that line, but in mid July I started a heavy bombing campaign to ruin his supplies. Then I took a couple of divisions a turn attacked his line to make him bleed and lose supply, and to not allow his units to recuperate fatigue. I'd rotate divisions in and out each turn so not the same ones were attacking him. Once I had the units I needed, that turn I flew every plane I had. In some of those hexes I was racking up well over 200k SMP usages. His trains weren't moving much and by hitting his units just behind the lines, I negate his recovering fatigue if I cause them more disruption. It's all in the planning and the AI is only a computer. I love the air game and all it's intricacies. If you use it correctly it's hard to stop The Pain Train. This is the 1st week of Aug 44 turn, when I cracked his lines. Didn't mean to get so wordy.[;)]

marion61 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 6:35:13 PM)
TY! Anything to help the cause. Allied side is hard to master, and I may know some things, but I'm a long way from mastering this game.

Smirfy -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 7:26:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baelfiin quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that. 3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense 9 Divisions in a thirty mile deep defensive belt on a 120 mile front is fiction. Like I said if you were playing War in the West 1916 fair enough.

Baelfiin -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 7:39:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy quote: ORIGINAL: Baelfiin quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy Looking at the screenshot, that looks more 1916 than 1944. Something is drastically wrong if you can achieve unit density like that. 3 divisions in 100 square miles is pretty dense 9 Divisions in a thirty mile deep defensive belt on a 120 mile front is fiction. Like I said if you were playing War in the West 1916 fair enough. 30 miles deep times 120 miles long is how many square miles? You can do the math how much frontage and depth is 1 division supposed to cover?

paullus99 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 8:09:14 PM)
The frontages in Normandy were pretty tight.....how many Divisions were part of Goodwood & how many miles of front did it cover?

Smirfy -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/12/2015 10:10:30 PM)
Frontages in Normandy were tight but they certainly were not deep. How many German divisions or equivalent fought in Normandy, 25? Thats including Cherbourg btw. By the time of Goodwood some of those divisions were no bigger than a Regiment like the 21st like 12SS others had ceased to exist. German divisions could according to the Commander of transport Hoeffner move only one third their normal rate due to interdiction, Rundstedt claimed their was little point sending sending full strength divisions to Normandy as he could not supply the ones he had. As for responding to the invaision PZ Lehr lost 10% of its trucks and over 10% of its non tank tracked vechiles trying to do just that in daylight. Then I laugh at the keeping divisions on trains, not only is it gamey its totally absurd given that Germany had a chronic shortage of rolling stock (Adam Tooze Wages of Destruction) It simply could not afford to have one wagon left idle. Like I said if you want World War I you have got it if you want WWII you need to start thinking what the Allies and the Axis were actually capable off whether logistically or in the face of airpower.

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/13/2015 1:33:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy Frontages in Normandy were tight but they certainly were not deep. How many German divisions or equivalent fought in Normandy, 25? Thats including Cherbourg btw. By the time of Goodwood some of those divisions were no bigger than a Regiment like the 21st like 12SS others had ceased to exist. German divisions could according to the Commander of transport Hoeffner move only one third their normal rate due to interdiction, Rundstedt claimed their was little point sending sending full strength divisions to Normandy as he could not supply the ones he had. As for responding to the invaision PZ Lehr lost 10% of its trucks and over 10% of its non tank tracked vechiles trying to do just that in daylight. Then I laugh at the keeping divisions on trains, not only is it gamey its totally absurd given that Germany had a chronic shortage of rolling stock (Adam Tooze Wages of Destruction) It simply could not afford to have one wagon left idle. Like I said if you want World War I you have got it if you want WWII you need to start thinking what the Allies and the Axis were actually capable off whether logistically or in the face of airpower. I guess the commanders during WW2 were smarter then many of the players. Carlkey is a very smart player http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3757755&mpage=2 most are not. Get some skills. I think people are looking for a I win button. 2by3 makes games that require attention to detail, if you being lazy your simply not going to get it done vs the AI. vs humans sure your be a laugh. read the rules and get some skills which your only going to get vs people.

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/13/2015 1:36:13 AM)
skills get some. Mastering skills Mastery pertains to perfecting a particular skill set. To reach mastery, authors Malcolm Gladwell and Robert Greene claim that 10,000 hours of work will have to be put into training.[9] Robert Greene (American author)#Mastery

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/13/2015 1:37:56 AM)
la·zy /ˈlâzç/ adjective adjective: lazy; comparative adjective: lazier; superlative adjective: laziest 1. unwilling to work or use energy.

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/13/2015 1:38:58 AM)
[sm=00000734.gif]

marion61 -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/13/2015 1:41:23 AM)
THAT'S ME! And it's not an unwillingness to work, it called "conservation of energy" when your older ;).

Peltonx -> RE: Amazed at the german invasion response (1/13/2015 1:44:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meklore61 THAT'S ME! And it's not an unwillingness to work, it called "conservation of energy" when your older ;). I call it potential energy [image]local://upfiles/20387/CD2E4AE2F7984D2F9088250970056AE0.jpg[/image]

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.6328125