Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (Full Version)

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Primarchx -> Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/6/2015 5:24:14 PM)

When looking over submarine sonars you find most are set for surface & submarine search. But surface vessel sonars, including passive towed arrays, are only set for submarine search.

Is this an accurate assessment? Do surface vessels ever use their passive sonars to detect and classify surface contacts? Depending on the set sensitivity and sonar situation (CZs), it seems like a valid OTH detection method.



magi -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/6/2015 8:13:56 PM)

Good question..... It would seem like they would process all sonic events that they pick up…



StellarRat -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 3:59:54 PM)

They should be able to pickup surface contacts too beyond visual range even.



gbethel -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 4:09:07 PM)

SONAR in game can detect a sub on the surface. Why not a ship?



magi -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 7:41:31 PM)

That's a good point.....



Sardaukar -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 8:20:44 PM)

I has been asked from devs. [8D]



thewood1 -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 9:00:04 PM)

I remember from old Harpoon discussions that surface noise is so great that sonar detection from ship to ship had very limited range. Not sure where or who the comment came from.



Primarchx -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 10:20:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I remember from old Harpoon discussions that surface noise is so great that sonar detection from ship to ship had very limited range. Not sure where or who the comment came from.


That's what I was wondering and I could see a situation where a bow-mounted sonar, even one capable of monitoring CZs, might be optimized for sub detection and not helpful for surface search. However, the difference between where a ship and a sub's towed arrays lay seem virtually the same and you would think they pick up the same set of signals, sub or surface.

BTW, I'm not lobbying for this in-game, per se. I'm sure the signal processing overhead would be significant. I'm just wondering what the tactical utility of sonar has been in the surface warfare arena.



mikmykWS -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/7/2015 11:10:28 PM)

Hi guys,

We're researching to find out if there are cases where this is actually done.

Mike



Sardaukar -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 12:07:29 AM)

It might be an issue when vessels are not emitting.



thewood1 -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 4:59:36 PM)

I thought I saw this a little while ago...doesn't answer the question directly, but shows some of the issues.

from page 107 in the manual about sea state effects:

"Surface ducting is useless in high waves
and sonar ranges at or near the surface are severely degraded. High
waves also raise the minimum safe altitude for low-flying aircraft"



StellarRat -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 5:32:32 PM)

Degraded doesn't mean impossible though. Many ships have towed arrays that can be down quite a distance and there are also sonobuoys, dipping sonar, etc... If they can hear a sub my guess is that they can hear surface vessels too.



Sardaukar -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 5:34:30 PM)

I'd be interesting if TASS/VDS could detect surface targets further than other ship's passive sensors. If it is so, that might be for request for small improvement.



thewood1 -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 6:02:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Degraded doesn't mean impossible though. Many ships have towed arrays that can be down quite a distance and there are also sonobuoys, dipping sonar, etc... If they can hear a sub my guess is that they can hear surface vessels too.


There are two ships involved here though. The degradtion might not just be on the hunter's end. I would imagine surface noise plays a role on both sides.



StellarRat -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 7:56:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Degraded doesn't mean impossible though. Many ships have towed arrays that can be down quite a distance and there are also sonobuoys, dipping sonar, etc... If they can hear a sub my guess is that they can hear surface vessels too.


There are two ships involved here though. The degradtion might not just be on the hunter's end. I would imagine surface noise plays a role on both sides.

True. But, what if the surface ship is moving along at dead slow hunting for subs? It's not going to making much noise of it's own obviously. I'd be willing to bet it will hear surface contacts at quite a distance. Subs can hear surface contacts a periscope depth, in fact, if they're below the layer hearing surface ships gets much harder.



thewood1 -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 8:16:29 PM)

I am no sonar expert, but I practiced mechanical engineering for 20 years, specializing in fluid dynamics as applied to high temp viscous bodies. I can tell you that in any fluid, as you near the surface interface, surface tension and disruptions play havoc with all sensor readings. That is my only thought. When we ran dimensionless tests, all readings had to be taken x distance from any surface interface. So I was just throwing out an educated guess.



navwarcol -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/8/2015 9:46:20 PM)

Generally as well, the towed arrays are picking up sounds from their side of the layer (below it) not from the other side where surface ships would be. The layer usually acts almost as a wall, so that you can listen "below" (as most long towed arrays would be by virtue of their 'longness') or "above" which would seldom be used since mostly you are hunting for subsurface contacts.



.Sirius -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/9/2015 9:24:17 AM)

Hi guys,
going on experience with the UK towed array Type 2031 I and Z versions we would pick up two type of contact Broadband which is surface ship traffic and Narrow Band Submarine contact this is based on the Hz level the array picks up, this is dependant on array depth but you using pick up surface ship traffic anyway, this goes for Hull mounted sonars too in the passive mode dependant on ship speed weather and water conditions especially on type 2050 active passive sonar using the CZs etc
quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

Generally as well, the towed arrays are picking up sounds from their side of the layer (below it) not from the other side where surface ships would be. The layer usually acts almost as a wall, so that you can listen "below" (as most long towed arrays would be by virtue of their 'longness') or "above" which would seldom be used since mostly you are hunting for subsurface contacts.




mikmykWS -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/9/2015 12:09:01 PM)

I'd say that settles that. Adding item to our list.

Mike



StellarRat -> RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? (1/9/2015 5:52:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi guys,
going on experience with the UK towed array Type 2031 I and Z versions we would pick up two type of contact Broadband which is surface ship traffic and Narrow Band Submarine contact this is based on the Hz level the array picks up, this is dependant on array depth but you using pick up surface ship traffic anyway, this goes for Hull mounted sonars too in the passive mode dependant on ship speed weather and water conditions especially on type 2050 active passive sonar using the CZs etc
quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

Generally as well, the towed arrays are picking up sounds from their side of the layer (below it) not from the other side where surface ships would be. The layer usually acts almost as a wall, so that you can listen "below" (as most long towed arrays would be by virtue of their 'longness') or "above" which would seldom be used since mostly you are hunting for subsurface contacts.



Thanks for the information.



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