No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (Full Version)

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Timotheus -> No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/7/2015 2:39:52 AM)

T34's and BT7's (and BA10's for scout work, much better than kradshutzen or Sdkfz 231), of course.

This is November '41, winter time, so I guess the crappy German tanks all broke down during the rasputitsa mud - and the ones that could be repaired by a miracle got dealt a death blow by the EPIC Russian winter.

TOE is all Soviet tanks - makes sense, as this stuff works during the Russian winter, and the shoddily made German toy tanks made for the autobahn do not.


[image]local://upfiles/47109/AC6CF2A64D0545328403C678151FEB56.gif[/image]



von altair -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/7/2015 11:38:24 AM)

Dude, you sound heavily as a Russian fanatic who has listened too many hours of Soviet propaganda.
I wish you a great amount of luck and fun with your quality russian Lada! :)

The only good thing at Russia are girls! They are cheap and they can blow lada on from a backpipe!



Chris21wen -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/7/2015 1:40:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

T34's and BT7's (and BA10's for scout work, much better than kradshutzen or Sdkfz 231), of course.

This is November '41, winter time, so I guess the crappy German tanks all broke down during the rasputitsa mud - and the ones that could be repaired by a miracle got dealt a death blow by the EPIC Russian winter.

TOE is all Soviet tanks - makes sense, as this stuff works during the Russian winter, and the shoddily made German toy tanks made for the autobahn do not.



The Germans were very good at utilising captured equipment. They were not shy of admitting that some equipment was better than theirs or to fill a slot in they arsenal. The German 120mm Mtr was a direct rip off of the Soviet 120mm Mtr, entering service late 1941 early 1942 I think.

The Pak 37mm AT was hopeless against the armour of the T-34, their up gunned Pak 50mm was late and also proved to be ineffective so they used captured Soviet AT, the 76.2mm Pak(r) where (r) stands for Russian. This gun was also mounted on Czech 38(t) tank chassis or the French Lorraine Schlepper chassis as a stop gap until their 75mm Pak 40 became available in numbers. These vehicles ended up as the Marder series of TDs



morvael -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/7/2015 1:49:03 PM)

These tanks should be spread amongst all divisions, but WitE does not allow to do that (due to slot limits), so it's actually best possible use of the captured tanks - put them all in just one or two divisions. Saves problems with distribution of replacements parts as well [:)]



Timotheus -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/7/2015 5:13:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von altair

Dude, you sound heavily as a Russian fanatic who has listened too many hours of Soviet propaganda.
I wish you a great amount of luck and fun with your quality russian Lada! :)

The only good thing at Russia are girls! They are cheap and they can blow lada on from a backpipe!


Wow, you have offended both me and Russia and called all Russian women whores.



von altair -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/8/2015 8:07:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
Wow, you have offended both me and Russia and called all Russian women whores.


Well, there is an old saying "You get what you give". You started this thread
by being offensive against German tank quality. Many will agree, that they made
one of the best tanks in the world in time (Panther, Tiger etc.)

These times not many people outside of Russia likes Russians. Mr. Putin is
currently conquering Ukraina, a weak country. Russians already captured krim.
Russian politic is quite hostile. The Europe and America does not like such
behavior.

What comes to your claim, I told you that the best thing at Russia ARE GIRLS.
Your dirty mind translated my words as meaning of a whore. To be honest, if I meet
a russian girl, she will be happy for a lot less than European one. If I date a
european girl, she wants a good restaurant, a good meal, later on fashion clothes,
cars and a house. Russian girl instead... shes just happy to get out of Russia! :)



TDV -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/8/2015 9:33:16 PM)

von altair,

There are Russian guys on this forum too.
I would like to know do you insult all of us for a reason?
I also suggest the administration of this forum to review von altair's comments

Regards,
TDV, Russian



Aurelian -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/8/2015 10:09:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von altair


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus
Wow, you have offended both me and Russia and called all Russian women whores.


Well, there is an old saying "You get what you give". You started this thread
by being offensive against German tank quality. Many will agree, that they made
one of the best tanks in the world in time (Panther, Tiger etc.)



Yeah, that explains why they needed to use heavy artillery or the 88 Flak cannon to stop a KV-1

The Panther didn't come out until 1943, and didn't do very well at Kursk. Neither did the Elephant.

One for one, sure, the Panther and Tiger I were up there, But so were the T-34/85 and IS series.

Want a tank with all the bells and whistles, go Panther. You want reliability and to win the war, go T-34.



SigUp -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/8/2015 10:24:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


You want reliability and to win the war, go T-34.


Define reliability. T-34 had notoriously poor engines that broke down way earlier than German, let alone American models. Of course, the Soviets didn't put much emphasis on the engine, since the tanks tended to get taken out before the engine went down. [:D]



Mehring -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/8/2015 11:10:16 PM)

@ von altair

If you realised what you were saying about yourself you might be more reticent in your posts. But please! Better out than in, I'm all for free speech!



Timotheus -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 12:49:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


You want reliability and to win the war, go T-34.


Define reliability. T-34 had notoriously poor engines that broke down way earlier than German, let alone American models. Of course, the Soviets didn't put much emphasis on the engine, since the tanks tended to get taken out before the engine went down. [:D]


The less said about von altair derpage, the better.

Now, on with the "who's the superior WW2 dork" thread [:D]

I think that Mr. SigUp is confusing two very different concepts here.

One is the lifespan of a product - in this case, a T34 tank. Just like your Japanese TV, it has a certain lifespan built in after which the product will have to be either refurbished or replaced.

Called obsolescence, it is timed just right for the TV to crap out RIGHT after your warranty runs out, so you have to buy a new one [:D].


Now, a T34 had a certain lifespan due to its engine, which the Soviets built for a purpose - there was no point in building a complicated engine which would last a year for a T34 because its lifespan would be less than a year. In case it survived its obsolescence, great - get it to the rear, switch the engine for a new one, and off it goes.

In contrast, those wonderful Pz I and Pz II tanks kept on running from 1939 to 1942 to the unbound joy of their crews [:D].


Now, reliability as I understand it is this - before obsolescence, before the product (in this case, a tank) is SUPPOSED TO crap out, will it be able to work, drive, shoot, pew pew without problems?

In this T34 WAS KING.

I like to use source material when discussing stuff, instead of, yah know, throwing **** outta an ***, so I will use Forczyk's Osprey title T34 vs Panther: Ukraine 1943.

As a stunt, the T34 prototype was driven on a 2900 km (that's 1802 miles for you metric phobists [:D]) without a break.

But you say, OK, it was a special crew, a special tank to demonstrate it to Stalin, what about combat conditions?

Again, from the book, I will paraphrase:

T34-85 of 5th Guards Tank Army were driven on their own tracks 300km between July 7 to 9th. After this horrendous route march, 90% of tanks were operational. Author states that this was impossible for a Panther unit to do.

5% of Panther tanks broke down within 100km and over 90% broke down within 1500km.

In Italy, Liebstandarte was given Panther tanks. All of them were returned/rejected for service due to mechanical problems.

Panthers and Tigers had to be moved by rail, as these German tanks could not move more than 100km without SIGNIFICANT losses.

The action part of the book then gives Kursk and Rumanstyev offensive, during which the Panther unit was forced to leave tank after tank due to mechanical breakdowns.

In the Aftermath section of the book, it is stated that more Panthers were lost due to mechanical breakdowns than enemy action (Ausf A and D models).

Panther Ausf G solved a lot of technical problems, such as engine fires (ahahahahaahaha [:D]) and weak transmission, but it was still basically a piece of crap which broke down ALL the time, and its technical problems were NEVER fixed.

It did not matter that the Panther had a super gun and superbly trained crews when the fast AND RELIABLE T34's flanked them and forced them to withdraw... they couldn't - mechanical breakdown, weak transmission, engine fire happened and the expensive piece of crap had to be written off.


Edit: My favorite quote from the book.

"Only one out of eight Panther battalions sent to the Eastern Front in 1943 managed to keep at least half its tanks operational for one week. The I/Panzer Regiment had an OR rate of 57% after nine days."

PzIV, the workhorse of German army, had OR rate of 65%, comparable to the T34's of 90% before combat and 70% during combat.



One last thing - Panther was a fuel hog, and so was the Tiger. The mobility was horrendous, it was a nightmare to repair and change stuff in (engine, wheels, track).

I mean just look at a Panther tank from a side. See the wheel configuration? What moron thought that THAT would be a good idea [:D]



Aurelian -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 1:06:53 AM)

Saved me the trouble of posting that :)

Oh, let's not forget that the T-34 was diesel powered..

My favorite quote from a link I posted years ago.

"One could produce a mighty slick looking and most effective Jagdpanther V with all the bells and whistles or one could opt to produce five shoddy looking, but most functional and reliable T-34’s instead. And so the equation goes. The Soviets opted for the latter scenario and they essentially defeated Germany in May of 1945. The Soviet Union produced great quantities of very basic weapons systems to counter the exceptional skills of the German military command. The Germans elected to go for the Jagdpanther V type scenario - they thus lost the economic battle of the war, and thus the war itself."



PhilThomas -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 1:52:20 AM)

The Germans were the ones who invaded, not the other way around. That means no matter how much we insult German tanks, equipment, people, beer, shepherds, chocolate cake, or anything else we want no response is justified.



SigUp -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 6:51:42 AM)

Well, should've made it clearer that I was only being half-serious there in response to the generalised statement of Aurelian (could the Germans have won the war simply by building T-34 instead of the Panther? would the T-34 even have suited their needs?). To be more exact, the T-34 was a fine tank and by 1943-44 the Soviets worked out the major issues plaguing the tank from the beginning. It was a tank that perfectly suited their needs, robust, quick to build, easy to handle, parts could be exchanged by less skilled crews in a hurry. They designed a tank around their shortcomings in regard to ensuring the long-term survivability of the crew and the tank. Would such a tank have suited the philosophy of Americans or Germans? Probably not.

However, the T-34 had massive issues in 1941 and 1942. In June 1941 8th Mechanized Corps lost half its AFV during the march to Dubno. And a Soviet tank man who was fighting in 1941-42 described that from an operating view the German tanks were better. For them covering 200km was nothing, while something would break down with the T-34 (from the book "T-34 in Action"). This is also echoed by a report of the chief of the Red Army's Auto-Armoured Directorate who noted that on average the T-34 covered less than 200km before needing overhaul. In addition to that the war situation in 1942 with the need of a high number of replacements also caused significant quality drops with some T-34 being unable to go more than 30-35 km before needing overhaul. Of course the reliability issue wasn't too high on the Soviets' agenda since the average distance covered before being knocked out in 1942 was something like 66 km.

Obviously, over time the Soviets worked out those issues and the inherent superiority in reliability within its designed life-span compared to the German machines showed itself. The Germans had a tendency to overengineer things, but it also has to be said that for the defensive war they fought from 1943 onwards a strong armour guaranteeing crew safety and a strong gun were worth more than a high reliability. If you see the Tiger less as a vehicle, but more as a mobile anti-tank bunker the perspective changes a little.



randallw -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 5:20:43 PM)

Soviet armor formations in the early part of the war still had that mismash of tank models, and maybe some types no longer had parts being manufactured ( factories already converted to make T-34 and KV parts ). Some of those tanks that broke down may already have been broken the moment they started the move.



morvael -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 5:25:50 PM)

Lack of radios resulted in very poor tactical efficiency. Tanks could only follow original battle plan, as using flag signalling usually didn't work out.



micheljq -> RE: No wonder Wehr is winning in '41 - they are using best equipment available (1/9/2015 6:25:21 PM)

Issues with T34 or other soviet tanks in june-july 1941, or summer 1941 can hardly be blamed on the model itself.

Soviet army was such in a bad state, completely surprised, lacking supplies, munitions, replacement parts, general bad maintenance of machinery. They were moving their tanks and in some case they had to abandon a lot of them in a day, sideways, because of total enemy air superiority, lacks of maintenance, parts breaking without having the replacement parts, etc.

Michel.



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