Guadalcanal Scenario (Full Version)

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jeffk3510 -> Guadalcanal Scenario (1/13/2015 7:10:49 PM)

Playing stock, with schanilec.

I play recent beta on my other games.

We recently played the Guadalcanal scenario and had some questions. Marc mainly has them as he played the Japanese side.

I just looked at it (beta, not stock) today from the Japanese side, and I am going to play a bit into with them.

One of my main questions is why do the majority of units start out with 0 prep?

Why do ships arrive in the area with ZERO fuel/supplies - Is this the only way to model incoming ships into the scenario? Is it modeled with ships/units arriving at same base with a daily supply gain/base simulate an arriving TF full of men/ships/supplies?

I know this isn't a lot of information, but this scenario almost makes it unplayable for Japan, and as it drug on, it was hard for the Japanese player to keep morale high.

I know history and what happened during this time frame, but I am curious how accurate the scenario is.

I know there are more questions and information to give, I was just thinking out loud.




Chickenboy -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/13/2015 7:49:16 PM)

Hi Jeff,

I don't have any answers for you, I just wanted to say that I read your thread and I'm not ignoring it. Cheers!





jeffk3510 -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/13/2015 7:54:07 PM)

Sounds good brother.




Alfred -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/14/2015 3:32:51 AM)

The data of a scenario is not dependent on the executable, so I don't follow why you keep on making the distinction between stock and beta.

There are two Guadalcanal scenarios:  scen 04 from Nikademus and scen 34 from the DaBabes gang.  Both share the same view of logistics, with scen 34 being even tighter in this area.

This is a quote from jwilkerson made on 24 May 2009 regarding the design philosophy of scen 04.


Back in early 2007, I joined Nik as the "Beta" team for his Guadalcanal Scenario for "NikMod" with the stock game engine. After about six months of play testing we released the scenario and then Nik started working on porting the scenario over to AE.

The design goal of this scenario is to put the player in the role of theater commander - and present the problems to the player that the real theater commanders had.

First and foremost is logistics. In Nik's GuadMod scenario, you will wonder "where is all my supply"? where is my "fuel"? How can I do anything with no supply or no fuel? In stock and in AE it is possible to stockpile large amounts of fuel and supply as you prepare to operate in a given area. Players (who plan ahead) rarely find themselves operating on a shoestring. In the real war - the Americans and Japanese in the South Pacific could not direct their bosses to send them everything they needed - they had make do with what they had.

But the player will find shortages of everything: Aircraft, engineers, transport ships. All the things the players wants most, will be in short supply!

So, if fighting a campaign under (simulated) realistic conditions sounds like your cup of tea - then the Guadalcanal Scenario will be for you. A six month campaign - long enough to require planning as well as execution - but not so long that your kids will grow up while you are playing it!


Nowadays Nikademus doesn't drop all that often into the forum but previously, on several occasions he made it very clear that the logistical constraints mirrored closely the historical situation.  It was after all, called Operation Shoestring.  In fact Nikademus was at pains to point out that players who play the GC (both Allied and Japan) are spoilt by having too much available logistics.  GC players usually maintain their operations constantly at maximum effort (the constant criticism of much too fast an operational tempo) and this was simply not possible historically.  His main goal was to ensure maximum effort was only possible in short spurts.  This slowdown being achieved by the need to spend limited PPs, practically non existent in theatre repair yards for damaged ships and shoestring logistics with ships out of position to fetch supplies.

The morale issues experienced by a long term AE player is one of the main reasons why I never, unlike 97% of responders, recommend newbies start off with a short scenario.  The short scenarios are simply not forgiving of any player mistake unlike the GC which can accommodate multiple mistakes and still allow for recovery.


Alfred




Justus2 -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/14/2015 3:49:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The morale issues experienced by a long term AE player is one of the main reasons why I never, unlike 97% of responders, recommend newbies start off with a short scenario.  The short scenarios are simply not forgiving of any player mistake unlike the GC which can accommodate multiple mistakes and still allow for recovery.

Alfred


Alfred,
You make an interesting point on the 'margin for error' in the smaller scenarios for new players. I followed advice from the forum when I first got this game (3 years later I still feel like a newbie) and played Coral Sea from both sides, then Guadalcanal (Scen04) as Allies. It did seem frustrating, but I know realize that the Allies have more margin than the Japanese on that scenario.

Moving from that to the GC makes it seem like supply and fuel are infinite (for the Allies, anyway), and it also makes me fixate on building up Noumea and other SoPac bases early.

Jeff,

I noticed some issues on the Japan side w/Scen 4, due to device renumbering issues in the updated scenario. I posted some of the editor corrections I made in the Mod thread on the Tech Support thread on AndyMac's scenario data updates: Post on Edits

I don't remember seeing ships arrive with no internal fuel, but I know many of the arriving AOs arrived empty. I have just started a PBEM using the DBB Guadalcanal scenario, as Japan, and I can tell you that logistics are extremely tight in that one as well. The DBB scenario does include a larger section of the map, and the player is responsible for moving more of the logistics around (Japan gets half it's 'generated' supply and fuel from Babeldaob, and has to move it, without any shipping starting there). There's also some 'stashes' of fuel and supplies around Kwaj and on NG, that can be picked up. Definitely makes you plan ahead.




AW1Steve -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/14/2015 3:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The data of a scenario is not dependent on the executable, so I don't follow why you keep on making the distinction between stock and beta.

There are two Guadalcanal scenarios:  scen 04 from Nikademus and scen 34 from the DaBabes gang.  Both share the same view of logistics, with scen 34 being even tighter in this area.

This is a quote from jwilkerson made on 24 May 2009 regarding the design philosophy of scen 04.


Back in early 2007, I joined Nik as the "Beta" team for his Guadalcanal Scenario for "NikMod" with the stock game engine. After about six months of play testing we released the scenario and then Nik started working on porting the scenario over to AE.

The design goal of this scenario is to put the player in the role of theater commander - and present the problems to the player that the real theater commanders had.

First and foremost is logistics. In Nik's GuadMod scenario, you will wonder "where is all my supply"? where is my "fuel"? How can I do anything with no supply or no fuel? In stock and in AE it is possible to stockpile large amounts of fuel and supply as you prepare to operate in a given area. Players (who plan ahead) rarely find themselves operating on a shoestring. In the real war - the Americans and Japanese in the South Pacific could not direct their bosses to send them everything they needed - they had make do with what they had.

But the player will find shortages of everything: Aircraft, engineers, transport ships. All the things the players wants most, will be in short supply!

So, if fighting a campaign under (simulated) realistic conditions sounds like your cup of tea - then the Guadalcanal Scenario will be for you. A six month campaign - long enough to require planning as well as execution - but not so long that your kids will grow up while you are playing it!


Nowadays Nikademus doesn't drop all that often into the forum but previously, on several occasions he made it very clear that the logistical constraints mirrored closely the historical situation.  It was after all, called Operation Shoestring.  In fact Nikademus was at pains to point out that players who play the GC (both Allied and Japan) are spoilt by having too much available logistics.  GC players usually maintain their operations constantly at maximum effort (the constant criticism of much too fast an operational tempo) and this was simply not possible historically.  His main goal was to ensure maximum effort was only possible in short spurts.  This slowdown being achieved by the need to spend limited PPs, practically non existent in theatre repair yards for damaged ships and shoestring logistics with ships out of position to fetch supplies.

The morale issues experienced by a long term AE player is one of the main reasons why I never, unlike 97% of responders, recommend newbies start off with a short scenario.  The short scenarios are simply not forgiving of any player mistake unlike the GC which can accommodate multiple mistakes and still allow for recovery.


Alfred

Alfred I like the 97% strongly recommend the shorter scenarios for two good reasons. 1) each of the scenarios teaches different lessons. Coral Sea , fighting a superior force with an inferior. Thousand mile war the effects of weather , and Guadacanal , the absolute importance of proper planning and supply. 2) WITP AE has a bit of pain involved in it's learning. It's much better to completely screw up a game that's weeks in playing versus one that's years in playing. Completely blowing a grand campaign has been known to cause people to "sicken" and leave the game with disdain and unpleasantness. Like all bitter medicines , it's usually better in small doses. [:D]

Now for people who have a strange thing for pain.........[:D]




Symon -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/14/2015 6:40:27 PM)

I wholeheartedly agree with Steve. When this game is played correctly it is supposed to be unforgiving. One learns most quickly when one sticks their winkie into the windmill. The short scenario people have devised a way for players to do that early and often. I know it's not technically a simulation, but good, smart, players will use them as a tool to understand those lessons Steve refers to.

Obviously, I am a fan of short scenarios. I hope you will also come to appreciate them, in time. Ciao. JWE




Cheeks -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/15/2015 12:31:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

sticks their winkie into the windmill.

<shudders>.... that's down-right chilling [:D]






Schanilec -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/15/2015 2:03:08 PM)

Then there is the nuclear B-17's. Putting over 50 to 60 bombers on a target. And wiping out an airbase in one fell swoop. In 1942? Really?

Also, I started building the Shortlands airfield at the beginning of the game. By November only 28% complete. Really?
Wasn't that airdrome completed and operational in October.
I know supplies and engineers were short. But really.


Then, damaged Japanese ships have no place to repair major damage? So Truk is just a warship junkyard? Really?

This scenario needs to be researched, re-evaluated and redesigned.

Shoestring yes. But a broken shoestring.

My two cents.




SigUp -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/15/2015 2:11:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

Then there is the nuclear B-17's. Putting over 50 to 60 bombers on a target. And wiping out an airbase in one fell swoop. In 1942? Really?

Also, I started building the Shortlands airfield at the beginning of the game. By November only 28% complete. Really?
Wasn't that airdrome completed and operational in October.
I know supplies and engineers were short. But really.


Then, damaged Japanese ships have no place to repair major damage? So Truk is just a warship junkyard? Really?

This scenario needs to be researched, re-evaluated and redesigned.

Shoestring yes. But a broken shoestring.

My two cents.

You need more construction batallions. I started building the airfield a bit too late, beginning in late August. Right now I'm at 43% with 4 construction batallions, gaining about 1-2% per day.

If you want to repair major damage that exceeds Akashi's capabilities you have to send them back to Japan. If you are lucky they might be back later in the scenario. I don't think the Japanese had the capability to repair anything major in the SE Pacific.




Schanilec -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/15/2015 2:36:03 PM)

I tried to find a way to send them to Japan, but couldn't.




SigUp -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/15/2015 2:39:13 PM)

Have them in Truk. Then click on the ship. Below in the detail screen will be a button Osaka (xxx) with xxx the days it takes to return.




Schanilec -> RE: Guadalcanal Scenario (1/15/2015 2:56:38 PM)

Never noticed that. Thanks much.




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