RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (Full Version)

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geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/16/2015 8:49:34 PM)

I planned on taking the District of Columbia, it didn't work out. [:(]



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/16/2015 9:00:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I planned on taking the District of Columbia, it didn't work out. [:(]


I wondered why I saw an iguana in the burbs the other day...



Malagant -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/16/2015 11:55:26 PM)

The mechanics of building the chosen aircraft are one thing...

...but to me the million dollar question is how to choose which aircraft you want to build!



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 4:59:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malagant

The mechanics of building the chosen aircraft are one thing...

...but to me the million dollar question is how to choose which aircraft you want to build!


Tojos. Oscar IIAs. Sallys yes but plan on Helens, build both for at least a while. Have at least minimal production of Babs and Dinahs. Same for Nells, Bettys, Mavis and later Emily. Build lots of Zeroes, it doesn't matter if you overdo it, just make sure you don't underdo it. Kates (either or both models) and Vals. Because of their range and bomb load, I always think of Oscar IIa and above as potential anti ship weapons and attempt to train at least a squadrons worth.

Keep Betty and Nell factories in existence even if idle. Float planes are really complicated, which and when is hard to prescribe but you should use up all the available engines to make Glens and never worry that you might be making too many Jakes. Jakes get shot down a lot because they have such excellent range and encounter land based CAP all too often. For those based on BBs or cruisers rein in their ranges (to say 6 or less) so they don't stray unnecessarily into base CAP.

There may be a misconception here however. The most important planning you need to do in this area is not how many airframes of which type to produce. It's the engine production. As long as you're producing the correct engines in sufficient quantities you can't go too far wrong with the airframes. Keep Frank, George Jack and so on in mind. If you reach 500 engines of a certain type in the pools the appearance of planes under R&D that use that engine will be advanced. Now in that regard Ha-35 engines may seem secondary, but you can never have too many of them, but you can easily have too few.



Numdydar -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 5:54:23 AM)

For those interested [:)]

Here is my engine pools as Japan from a late game PBEM (Scen 2) just to show what it can look like. Red means there are no factories producing that engine at all and Orange means there are factories available to produce that engine but the factories are turned off.



[image]local://upfiles/10981/D2A2800210DE45088AC0B64CD4635CFE.jpg[/image]



SigUp -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 2:36:32 PM)

Okay, so I've been going through the air production a bit and came up with a few numbers of which I would like to know whether that's complete nonsense, or halfway good to go. Despite not having much of a clue I actually thought going through the air production was kind of fun. [:D]

That's only the initial production, haven't looked at R&D yet.

Engines:

Ha-31: 45
Ha-32: 135
Ha-33: 160
Ha-34: 10
Ha-35: 300

Airframes:

A6M2: 100
B5N1: 15
B5N2: 15
C5M2: 5
D3A1: 25
E13A1: 27
E14Y1: 9
G3M2: 25
G4M1: 30
H6K4: 10
L3Y2: 5
Ki-21-IIa: 35
Ki-43-Ic: 100
Ki-46-II: 20
Ki-48-Ib: 34
Ki-57-I: 10



Numdydar -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 3:47:29 PM)

Engines are way off. You want 500 in the pools if possible in order to advance your R&D for the AFs that use those engines.

As far as AFs go, it depends on PDU On or Off. If PDU is Off and scenario 1, then that might do as a starting point to work from. If PDU is ON then you will need a lot more AFs in order to fill out the squadrons with crappy planes to the better models. Which will take a lot more AFs than just replacing expected losses. While you are definitely not trying to replace every Nate squadron for example, you are definitely are going to want to replace anything on the front and non-restricted. Which will eat up a lot of production. Even in scenario 1.

But you can fly almost anything, including Claude's, in the first 3-5 months and be fine. So you can gradually increase production over this time versus trying to do it all on turn 1.

The real trick for Japan is to expand at a slow enough pace so that their AC needs can be met 6-12 months in the future. The most I would every expand a factory, R&D or otherwise is by 30. Mainly because it will take 6+ weeks to see the full impact of the change. I personally like the 20 expansion the best if done at the start of a month. That way when I look at production at the start of the next month, I can easily see the impact and adjust again if needed.

Just some suggestions [:)]



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 9:32:59 PM)

quote:

I used B5N2 for ASW and kamis until 7/45 and wished I had more of them then!

They get the MAD device eventually, which is pretty useful, and they're the best IJN ASW plane even before that.


Hey, Obvert what about the G3M3 Nell? They get both MAD and radar (when available) and have a very nice range!



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 9:34:39 PM)

quote:

Jakes get shot down a lot because they have such excellent range and encounter land based CAP all too often. For those based on BBs or cruisers rein in their ranges (to say 6 or less) so they don't stray unnecessarily into base CAP.


Oh, great now you tell me!!![:D]



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 9:40:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Okay, so I've been going through the air production a bit and came up with a few numbers of which I would like to know whether that's complete nonsense, or halfway good to go. Despite not having much of a clue I actually thought going through the air production was kind of fun. [:D]

That's only the initial production, haven't looked at R&D yet.

Engines:

Ha-31: 45
Ha-32: 135
Ha-33: 160
Ha-34: 10
Ha-35: 300

Airframes:

A6M2: 100
B5N1: 15
B5N2: 15
C5M2: 5
D3A1: 25
E13A1: 27
E14Y1: 9
G3M2: 25
G4M1: 30
H6K4: 10
L3Y2: 5
Ki-21-IIa: 35
Ki-43-Ic: 100
Ki-46-II: 20
Ki-48-Ib: 34
Ki-57-I: 10


Someone back in the day had a thread on this in which he compared in game production to the historical rates. His figures were pretty close and I used it as my basis for a couple of games. I've modified it to taste. I think its a good place to start. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/17/2015 11:33:41 PM)

OK, my search turned up empty. I'll see if I have a hard copy, I usually print things like this out. If so I can get the author's name and the search will be simple.



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/18/2015 12:33:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I used B5N2 for ASW and kamis until 7/45 and wished I had more of them then!

They get the MAD device eventually, which is pretty useful, and they're the best IJN ASW plane even before that.


Hey, Obvert what about the G3M3 Nell? They get both MAD and radar (when available) and have a very nice range!


It's a very good plane, for all those reasons. Excellent for searching, and long range "poking".



obvert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/18/2015 1:57:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Okay, so I've been going through the air production a bit and came up with a few numbers of which I would like to know whether that's complete nonsense, or halfway good to go. Despite not having much of a clue I actually thought going through the air production was kind of fun. [:D]

That's only the initial production, haven't looked at R&D yet.

Engines:

Ha-31: 45
Ha-32: 135
Ha-33: 160
Ha-34: 10
Ha-35: 300

Airframes:

A6M2: 100
B5N1: 15
B5N2: 15
C5M2: 5
D3A1: 25
E13A1: 27
E14Y1: 9
G3M2: 25
G4M1: 30
H6K4: 10
L3Y2: 5
Ki-21-IIa: 35
Ki-43-Ic: 100
Ki-46-II: 20
Ki-48-Ib: 34
Ki-57-I: 10


Someone back in the day had a thread on this in which he compared in game production to the historical rates. His figures were pretty close and I used it as my basis for a couple of games. I've modified it to taste. I think its a good place to start. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.



Might have been me! I did compare my production somewhere around 43 and in terms of numbers it was similar, although I think later I pulled ahead as the Allied bombing didn't slow thing until early 45.

Here is a link to how many engines and airframes were produced by 7/45. Loka points out that I used 'only' 2,538,036 HI on planes! [:D]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3567070

I also did make a thread for a Japanese 'average' production and another for an approximated Allied production.

Aha! Found it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3359966



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/18/2015 3:55:13 AM)

Yeah, it was the second thread I was referring to. Thanks Obvert, saved me a bit of time.



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/18/2015 5:20:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Okay, so I've been going through the air production a bit and came up with a few numbers of which I would like to know whether that's complete nonsense, or halfway good to go. Despite not having much of a clue I actually thought going through the air production was kind of fun. [:D]

That's only the initial production, haven't looked at R&D yet.

Engines:

Ha-31: 45
Ha-32: 135
Ha-33: 160
Ha-34: 10
Ha-35: 300

Airframes:

A6M2: 100
B5N1: 15
B5N2: 15
C5M2: 5
D3A1: 25
E13A1: 27
E14Y1: 9
G3M2: 25
G4M1: 30
H6K4: 10
L3Y2: 5
Ki-21-IIa: 35
Ki-43-Ic: 100
Ki-46-II: 20
Ki-48-Ib: 34
Ki-57-I: 10


Someone back in the day had a thread on this in which he compared in game production to the historical rates. His figures were pretty close and I used it as my basis for a couple of games. I've modified it to taste. I think its a good place to start. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.



Might have been me! I did compare my production somewhere around 43 and in terms of numbers it was similar, although I think later I pulled ahead as the Allied bombing didn't slow thing until early 45.

Here is a link to how many engines and airframes were produced by 7/45. Loka points out that I used 'only' 2,538,036 HI on planes! [:D]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3567070

I also did make a thread for a Japanese 'average' production and another for an approximated Allied production.

Aha! Found it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3359966


Looking at that again, you were producing 1073 Ha-45 per month at the end! So many more than me.

I'll have to do up a chart of my production tomorrow if I don't get some turns...



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/18/2015 8:42:05 PM)

quote:

Looking at that again, you were producing 1073 Ha-45 per month at the end! So many more than me.

I'll have to do up a chart of my production tomorrow if I don't get some turns...


IRL Japanese engine production peaked in '44 at 46526. Now I'm not saying that you should or could do that in game. Of course some of those engines went into trainers and other A/C that may not be represented in the game. Also unlike the game some engines had to be swapped out and/or junked due to combat damage or just wear.



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/18/2015 10:49:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Engines are way off. You want 500 in the pools if possible in order to advance your R&D for the AFs that use those engines.



You don't want 500 Ha-31's. Belay that order!



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/19/2015 2:18:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Engines are way off. You want 500 in the pools if possible in order to advance your R&D for the AFs that use those engines.



You don't want 500 Ha-31's. Belay that order!


That's correct this is an engine that will go out of use as the game progresses.



Spidery -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/20/2015 1:40:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Engines are way off. You want 500 in the pools if possible in order to advance your R&D for the AFs that use those engines.



You don't want 500 Ha-31's. Belay that order!


Not sure I agree with this.

In a PBEM, without restrictive house rules, you will probably want to advance the Ki-45 KAId Nick night fighter and produce that for all of 1944 and into 1945 until the Ki-102c is available.

If you have 2 R&D (size 30) factories on the Nick and have 60 Ha-31 production you should be able to build up the Ha-31 pool to 500 to get the engine bonus. The 60 production will then supply the needed engines for the R&D bonus and, when the plane is available (probably 12/43 or 1/44), will supply the extra engines for the first 250 produced.



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/20/2015 3:45:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Engines are way off. You want 500 in the pools if possible in order to advance your R&D for the AFs that use those engines.



You don't want 500 Ha-31's. Belay that order!


Not sure I agree with this.

In a PBEM, without restrictive house rules, you will probably want to advance the Ki-45 KAId Nick night fighter and produce that for all of 1944 and into 1945 until the Ki-102c is available.

If you have 2 R&D (size 30) factories on the Nick and have 60 Ha-31 production you should be able to build up the Ha-31 pool to 500 to get the engine bonus. The 60 production will then supply the needed engines for the R&D bonus and, when the plane is available (probably 12/43 or 1/44), will supply the extra engines for the first 250 produced.


Agree.

I think you should go for the Nick NF anyway, even with PDU On, as it's the soonest one you can get that's worth anything.

Also, isn't the Ha-31 used for the Jake?



Lowpe -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/20/2015 4:37:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I think you should go for the Nick NF anyway, even with PDU On, as it's the soonest one you can get that's worth anything.

Also, isn't the Ha-31 used for the Jake?



Nope, at least not in my stock game. Nick C mod, Sonia, Topsy II, Alf...for me.

Nick NF is the first Army NF, but I still like Irving, and have hopes for the Irving S with the extra cannon especially in first half of 44. Any NF is better than no night fighter.







rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/20/2015 9:09:19 PM)

IMO there are only three NF Japan should attempt to produce, and for one simple reason, the rest are all too slow to catch the B-29's. Now this won't happen all the time but you ever see the message 'can't catch bomber' or some such. That's because your pursuit A/Cs' speed is lower than the bomber. BTW these three NF happen to be the Dinah, Myrt, and Randy. The rest all have a top speed lower than the B-29.

quote:

Also, isn't the Ha-31 used for the Jake?


Jake uses the Ha-33. At least in stock.

Anyway, after I have enough DinahII's and TopsyII's (DinahIII uses Ha-33 and Helen transport uses Ha-34) the Ha-31 goes away. Again this is in a stock game and is just MHO.[8D]



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