looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex?

looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (Full Version)

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urtel -> looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 7:01:27 PM)
Ground combat at Nanning (72,55) Allied Shock attack Attacking force 39614 troops, 375 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1426 Defending force 26664 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 778 Allied adjusted assault: 2140 Japanese adjusted defense: 197 Allied assault odds: 10 to 1 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-) Attacker: shock(+) Japanese ground losses: 499 casualties reported Squads: 2 destroyed, 66 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Allied ground losses: 4596 casualties reported Squads: 11 destroyed, 541 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 35 disabled Engineers: 1 destroyed, 57 disabled Assaulting units: 79th Chinese Corps 46th Chinese Corps 14th Chinese Corps 6th Chinese Corps 35th Group Army 20th Artillery Regiment 3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment 7th Artillery Regiment 1st Artillery Regiment 19th Group Army 49th AA Regiment Defending units: 4th RTA Division 3rd RTA Division 4th Ind.Mixed Regiment 1st RTA Division 7th RTA Division ------------------------------------- as u can see with 10:1 assault odds i m getting 1:10 losses, now i will need to R&R for full month so i can do this attack again with same units and using that tactic i will need 2 years to eliminate enemy stack, is there any better way to do it? Now this is unimportant battle i can simply ignore enemy troops there, but i will like to learn best way to win battles like this.. Little more info this is DBB-c game against AI, enemy is cut off there for more than 6 months and i have 4 Chinese bomber groups do them every day, i have corps and army HQ in rage, and i m pretty good in supply ...anything more i can do? i know i can send some more troops but from this result i think that will just produce more mine losses and it will not faster thing at all..

Yaab -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 7:08:41 PM)
10:1 ratio should force the RTA to retreat. Is the hex totally cut off? If so, the garrison has no hex to retreat to.

witpqs -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 7:48:57 PM)
With a deliberate attack you will most likely get lower odds, but also almost certainly way lower casualties. As Yaab pointed out, the defenders would have retreated if they had a retreat path. In this situation, the odds don't matter any more (because you already have captured or already own the base). What matters is the casualties. Keep your casualties down. If the defenders are cut off so that they can't retreat then they also almost certainly have no supply coming in. Every time you attack some of their supply gets used up. When they have no more supply things will deteriorate more quickly, but it still might take some time. Best to hold off attacking until the disruption of your units in in the single digits or at most the teens. Maybe 15% or lower as a compromise? Deliberate attacks only. Air strikes against the defenders help too. If they are in good shape, you can try having the artillery units bombard during turns when your infantry units are resting. That will keep up the supply pressure and other degrading effects on the defenders. Good luck!

RogerJNeilson -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 8:02:46 PM)
I there is no danger of them being brought back to life by an enemy force moving to regain a communication and logistics supply line then you can easily reduce the force you need to guard them and move the rest out to do other mischief. Effectively they have their own little POW camp there. The terrain bonus works in your favour if you just leave enough AV to 'guard them. With no supply and no route out they will just wither away. It will take a while but you will not lose any troops in the process. I'd estimate one of those Chinese Corps would do the trick, especially as your opponent doesn't actually know what you will leave there unless he bombards you - and he has hardly any guns left to use, and probably very little ammo. Sometimes you don't need to fight...... Roger

HansBolter -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 8:39:48 PM)
You need to learn that the reported combat odds mean almost nothing in this game engine. The odds are not what the combat results are based on. The odds are calculated at the end of the combat resolution after all casualties have been taken for the sole purposes of determining if a retreat occurs or if a fort is reduced. The combat results are determined by each device within the LCU firing at an enemy device. The way to reduce a large concentration that has no retreat route is to bomb daily to raise the disruption level of the enemy LCUs. Bombard daily as well for the same reason, even though it will look like you aren't getting very high casualties from. Bomb and bombard daily for a week. Make Determined Assaults for 2-3 days straight monitoring your own disruption and fatigue levels and go back to bombing and bombarding for a week of rest before recycling the DAs. Only once you see the enemy AV going down drastically ( a sign of lots of disabled devices, as mentioned above this will happen once supply runs out) should you consider a coup de gras with a Shock Attack. This will reduce your time required to a few months instead of a few years.

urtel -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 8:54:09 PM)
ok, so deliberate + bombarding while resting and that will do it in months, i m just afraid that much of bombardment do not give too much exp to defenders so they give me even more problems after month, but i will try...

RogerJNeilson -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 9:21:05 PM)
People who are starving, or injured or dead will not gain much experience from bombardments. If they are truly cut off from supply they are walking dead....... even less scary than zombies! Roger

Jim D Burns -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 10:20:56 PM)
Starving troops will also have equipment items get damaged automatically every turn, and damaged items will begin to die eventually as well, so the death spiral has already begun. Bombarding them speeds up the process by damaging even more stuff so don't worry about experience gain. Besides unless things have changed bombardment experience used to be capped at 50-60 or so, once a unit reached that level they couldn't gain further experience except through assault style attacks. Though I’m not sure if this applied to defenders or just attackers, my memory just isn’t what it used to be. Jim

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 10:56:01 PM)
Another issue is if they don't own the base or there is no base present, the level of fortification is unknown to you. Until (in most cases) you reduce that level to 0 or 1 shock attacks are usually suicidal. Use deliberate attacks to get a feel for how ready they are to collapse. Once you see casualty rates of 10 to 1 you may consider a shock attack to finish them off. Shouldn't take months. Another factor is your commanders. If they have high aggression rates but low land skill rates, you get the charge of the light brigade. Leadership, inspiration and land skill are most important. Sometimes aggression might be a good trait for tank or recon commanders, but the Chinese don't have any of those. Chinese officers are pretty crappy for the most part, so no more human waves.

rustysi -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:27:35 PM)
quote: ok, so deliberate + bombarding while resting and that will do it in months, i m just afraid that much of bombardment do not give too much exp to defenders so they give me even more problems after month, but i will try... quote: bombardment experience used to be capped at 50-60 I think its capped to the maximum level a unit can train to based on its nationality. For example the IJA can train LCU's to a level of 55 experience (manual p187). The reason I say this is I have two units in the woods outside Changsha since forever and the Chinese units there that have been bombarding them almost every day. One units' exp is 61 and going nowhere and the other had an exp of 51 and its now 55.

rustysi -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:36:40 PM)
I think the big problem here is that there's nowhere to run.[:D] What did Sun Tzu say? Something like if you want an army to fight leave them no way out. If you can give these buggers a way out they will retreat losing lots of devices. If they really have nowhere to run they may surrender. Otherwise you can just run down the remnants and use them as a punching bag.

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:38:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi I think the big problem here is that there's no where to run.[:D] What did Sun Tzu say? Something like if you want an army to fight leave them no way out. If you can give these buggers a way out they will retreat losing lots of devices. If they really have nowhere to run they may surrender. Otherwise you can just run down the remnants and use them as a punching bag. Did Sun Tzu have NKVD?

rustysi -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:40:07 PM)
quote: Did Sun Tzu have NKVD? No, but they'll do in a pinch.[:D]

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:41:07 PM)
For the ultimate in that, study the siege of Alesia, it's astounding.

wdolson -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:54:11 PM)
Another thing about ground combat, there are two phases. The first phase units shoot at one another, the second phase is where the odds are calculated based on the remaining AV and retreat, unit surrender/destruction is determined. You can suffer high losses during the shooting at one another phase and still get high assault odds. It's rare, but it happened in this case. When you do Shock attack, your troops are more vulnerable during the shooting at one another phase, but it will boost your assault odds at the end. Shock attacks should be used very sparingly. Sometimes it may be worth it to push the enemy out of a base or something like that and there are some cases where they are mandatory, but normally, Deliberate attacks are a better balance between results and casualties. Bill

rustysi -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/14/2015 11:59:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert For the ultimate in that, study the siege of Alesia, it's astounding. IIRC, Caesar, Gaul?

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 1:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert For the ultimate in that, study the siege of Alesia, it's astounding. IIRC, Caesar, Gaul? Don't forget Vercingetorix.

witpqs -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 1:40:50 AM)
I use Newman's Own Olive Oil & Vinegar, myself.

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 1:43:41 AM)
The Romans proved how important engineers were to successful campaigns, for some reason (at least in this game) the Brits and Commonwealth didn't learn it and relied on the US to provide those. If you're playing the Allies don't forget to send lots of US engineers (construction and air) to the Burma front. They are even more valuable than they are anywhere else.

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 1:49:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs I use Newman's Own Olive Oil & Vinegar, myself. That seems quite vertiginous of you, I'm feeling dizzy, stuff whirling around, I hope I don't break my hips. [X(]

RogerJNeilson -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 5:58:16 AM)
Another point is I often like large useless enemy stacks that 'aint going nowhere' and have little in the way of flak left... lovely place to train up bomber units. Roger

rustysi -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 6:03:18 AM)
quote: Don't forget Vercingetorix. No, I didn't forget. I just can't spell it.[:D]

rustysi -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 6:04:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3 Another point is I often like large useless enemy stacks that 'aint going nowhere' and have little in the way of flak left... lovely place to train up bomber units. Roger Yep, and I do it against small units that retreat into the jungle too.[;)]

RogerJNeilson -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 6:04:56 AM)
Vercingtingumyjig.....Nor could he..... Roger

HansBolter -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 11:02:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert For the ultimate in that, study the siege of Alesia, it's astounding. IIRC, Caesar, Gaul? Don't forget Vercingetorix. I still have the ancient Avalon Hill board game of the battle. Classic example of the tactical donut.

crsutton -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/15/2015 1:56:07 PM)
You should have posted a screen shot as well. The biggest issues is if they units are surrounded. If so, you might lose the first few deliberate attacks but three or four deliberate attacks will burn up their supply and they will start to die off while your losses will be few. If he has a line of supply or is defending a supplied base then you will have a tougher time. Otherwise it is hard to determine what caused you to lose so severely. It could have been a one off. (Call it a bad die roll, even though die rolls do not apply) The Chinese units probably suck but the RTA units are also very poor units.

geofflambert -> RE: looking for tactic advice - how to clear this hex? (1/16/2015 5:43:15 PM)
I don't know if the game models this, but judging by how few squads were destroyed, I'd think the bulk of the casualties are deserters. They'll come back one way or the other.

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