Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (Full Version)

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Napoleon15 -> Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 5:48:56 PM)

Okay, so I've finally gotten near to finishing my campaign as the Allies (After numerous restarts), and I'm finding it bloody hard to actually get anywhere. I've been using the air director etc to manage my airforces, as I figure the AI would make better use of them until I understand the game system better, but it seems to do a very bad job of it in general, not even assigning any air missions to the 9th US Airforce now that I'm trying to push into Germany. It seems like the only real way to get decent results from the air is to micromanage it all.

In terms of the ground, I'm on turn 95, -195 victory points, and still haven't made it into Germany or cleared Belgium etc properly. It's only in the last few turns that I'm actually starting to be able to get winnable attack odds on more than a handful of divisions. Generally speaking, for most of the campaign, I've been unable to get high enough attack odds despite reaching maximum stacks in 3+ surrounding hexes. I had Antwerp besieged on all sides and isolated for multiple turns, occupied by two German divisions, and it still took something like 6+ attacks over a prolonged period to clear it.

The only time I make any progress on the front line is when I somehow hit an arbitrary point that makes the AI withdraw its forces to a new line, but if it didn't withdraw, it'd be able to hold me at bay for most of the game.

I've read the manual pretty thoroughly and feel like I understand the game concepts fairly well, yet it feels like I'm missing something given the terrible results I've had in every campaign I've started. It seems like the only chance you have of getting anywhere as the Allies is using air, but the air director lacks the ability to make use of the air properly.

I will probably uninstall the game for a while, because I'm pretty tired of restarting the campaign and running into the same brickwalls again and again, but I sure could do with some tips in advancing the ground war. It's a currently a slow grind of getting a hex here and there each turn, and I'm going nowhere.



Baelfiin -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 6:03:10 PM)

Probably need to work on the air game part, there is a lot of stuff that you can do with it to make it easier on the ground.
Meklore61 has posted a good walkthrough of what to do with the allied air.



Belphegor -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 6:06:35 PM)

I've been bitten more than once not paying close attention to logistics. There's a big difference between general supply levels and levels appropriate for offensives.



Dante Fierro -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 6:10:12 PM)

I don't think you'll get too far in the game unless you manage the air war yourself instead of leaving it to automated AI.



Napoleon15 -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 6:14:19 PM)

Yeah... I guess I shot myself in the foot automating it. I thought it'd be the best way to learn the game, just tackling the ground stuff first, which is what I know more about, but it seems I'm better off just working it all out myself. I'll wipe my saves, take a break, read the manual, and hopefully have better luck with the next campaign.



Dante Fierro -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 6:18:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Napoleon15

Yeah... I guess I shot myself in the foot automating it. I thought it'd be the best way to learn the game, just tackling the ground stuff first, which is what I know more about, but it seems I'm better off just working it all out myself. I'll wipe my saves, take a break, read the manual, and hopefully have better luck with the next campaign.


You can review the AI automated directives to get an idea to do with your Air, or even assist you i.e. modifying the generated directives. But I am learning that the air war really is just as critical and requires just as much of your management as the ground. I enjoy however the process, i.e. what kind of air groups am I going to send, what kind of missions, types of loads, intensity etc. But it requires an interest in the details of your air campaign, and actually some investigation on the different air frames available and what they did during WWII. There's almost a whole separate game here, but a fascinating one. Good luck!




Nico165b165 -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 6:23:31 PM)

Maybe playing complete campaigns vs a competitive opponent (the AI can be very competitive) from the start is not the best idea. You'll play for hours and fail because of a small detail you never encountered before. That's a frustrating learning experience.

Smaller scenarios will make you learn 90% of the mechanisms involved while still being fast to play. It's easier to play them several time, each time concentrating on a different topic. If you fail, you won't have to play 20 or 30 hours to come back to the same point.

To push the idea further, you can set up some real test game by playing with both sides. This way you can test 10 times the same battle, each time with a small change in the configuration, and figuring what works best.



Joel Billings -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/16/2015 8:14:02 PM)

I agree with the idea of starting with the smaller scenarios. If you are having trouble attacking as the Allies, try the Breakout & Pursuit scenario where you can practice how to make progress on the ground without having to worry about strategic air issues. You should be able to use the auto AD creation screen to set up the ADs, and then you can fine tune them. This is easier than making them totally from scratch, in my opinion. Interdiction is usually the key for the Allies in being able to crack a tough defensive position.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 12:16:13 AM)

When you say you are having the AI run the air game, are you remember to let it move your units and manage your bases as well as setting air directives? Are you telling it to do amphib support when needed to get it to focus on your landing areas?

I agree that in the long run you get better results by tweaking the AI directives or setting some yourself, but I've found that it does a passable job.

Regards,

- Erik



cmunson -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 1:15:06 AM)

quote:

I'll wipe my saves, take a break, read the manual, and hopefully have better luck with the next campaign.


Take heart, I barely reached the Rhine my first 43 Campaign game. As others have said, mastery of logistics and airpower much more important to Allies. If you were a WitE player you have to unlearn all of your Russian offense habits. Allies are better used as a sword rather than a hammer. Concentrate airpower and punch big holes when you do it. Don't try to grind Germans down across the entire front. No crime to be stuck in Italy turn after turn either and invade southern France as soon as possible after D-Day.

Good luck!



paullus99 -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 1:16:16 AM)

It isn't even a sword - it is a rapier.

Your land forces aren't "gods on the battlefield" but your air force is - proper use of Allied air can truly decimate the German Army & open up opportunities.



cmunson -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 1:16:52 AM)

Oh, and be grateful it is hard. If you reached Berlin your first game as Allies you'd probably not play again.[;)]



Napoleon15 -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 7:25:45 AM)

Thanks, it's probably wise for me to learn the smaller scenarios first. Just couldn't resist that big old campaign. Despite there being so much to learn, I really love the level of detail in these games. Armies and divisions with generic strength points etc in games just doesn't do it for me. It's a lot of fun looking through all your divisions, examining their TOE etc.

I've got one more question though: When attacking, am I better off just leaving most of the front line static and just trying to punch through an area a few hexes wide and exploiting any gaps, or should I be trying to attack anywhere where I have good odds for success? Obviously I don't want attack so broadly that I lack any kind of punch to move forward, but are successful repeated attacks worth it in areas where I can't really plunge reserves into any gaps?

Thanks!



cmunson -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 2:02:35 PM)

There is nothing wrong militarily with attacking on a broad front with the Allies but the additional casualties cost you a lot of victory points. If I have really great odds I make "opportunity" attacks anywhere I can but main punch is always where my tactical bombers can put some hurt on the Axis.



marion61 -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/17/2015 5:15:22 PM)

Yes, you need to sometimes stop attacking to build up VP's as the allies, so you can afford to attack a turn or two.



gmsitton -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/19/2015 1:33:26 AM)

When you're ready to try again, try attrition attacks supported by air and an offshore amphib task force. Isolate the area with interdiction and railway air attacks. Concentrate artillery in Corps HQ. Wear down a section of the German front line until you achieve a breakthrough.

You'll want to keep as many units as possible off the front line (and on depots, if possible) to reduce fatigue and improve supplies and replacements. At the same time, be sure every German unit on the front line has an Allied unit adjacent to it to deny the same benefit to that unit.



Mac Linehan -> RE: Having a very hard time of it as the Allies (1/19/2015 6:27:48 AM)

Gents -

Good advice in this (and other) threads.

I was fortunate enough to have two weeks off for Christmas Break; and spent a good portion of that time reading and studying the rules with the map on screen as a reference. Time, I now realize, that was well spent.

While the Auto Air Directive function is useful as a start point, it did not take long (as my comprehension of the rules increased) for me to realize that manually setting up the AD's was the way to go. With so many variables involved, it is far better (at least in my style of play) to set up each AD with careful attention to detail - and get more bang for the buck.

I am still very much a novice who spends far more time rereading the rules and forum threads than actually playing. Although a turn goes slowly, it is beginning to pay off as the intricacies and interrelationships of the various game functions and mechanics become clearer.

As per advice in this thread, I have been playing the "Breakout and Pursuit" scenario as the Allies. Have only done the first two turns - starting over three times; but learned much and my confidence is rapidly growing.

My current game has seen the concentrated use of (well escorted) airpower to hammer the German Paratroopers in Coutances and the hex to it's immediate left; including repeated, very focused (same two hexes) recon supported by an Air Superiority Mission covering a wider area. Allied losses were significantly lower than the Luftwaffe; a far better exchange rate than my original auto AD game.

Land combat (with high odds - to lower casualties) resulted in the retreat of the battered German forces in Coutances; with acceptable losses to the Allied forces. I then rotated the assault units back to depots in the rear and placed them in refit mode.

Next turn I will again repeat the procedure but with a wider area of interdiction to restrict German movement.

All this for a 10 mile gain against an experienced foe in excellent defensive (Bocage = double dense) terrain while keeping my losses down; but that is what it takes when fighting in difficult Norman terrain.

None of this is news to the old hands; the point is that applying the Allied strength (air power), and attention to detail when planning air and land combat gets results- as mentioned by several experienced posters in this and other threads.

It's almost midnight; but have just finished rereading (again) the supply section of the rules - and I think I am finally starting to truly understand how it all works. For every action or game mechanic in the rules, there is so much more involved than meets the eye. War in the West is a very deep and complicated game; a thorough understanding of the rules followed by hours of game play (I am not there yet) will enable a player to get the most rewarding experience out of the game. As with War in the Pacific, Admiral's Edition (which I play each weekend), WitW rewards intelligent game play based on a knowledge of the rules and game mechanics.

This is no disparagement on those who choose to dive right in - there is much to be said for that approach.

My take is that if 2by3 has put their heart and soul into creating the deepest and most comprehensive game system that recreates the War in the West and the East, with more to follow; then the onus us upon me to learn the system well and optimize gameplay. Or, at least, that's the plan.

My sincere respect to 2by3 Games and all of the play testers and support folks who helped put War in the West together and out the door.

WitW is an outstanding game that accurately reflects the common and unique challenges faced by both sides in Europe - be it establishing a beach head and supplying armies on an invasion beach head on distant shores; or holding the line in Occupied Europe, while moving limited reinforcements and assets that are subject to continual air interdiction. Not to mention defending the Reich's productive capability against an intensive, non stop destructive aerial bombardment.

It was most helpful in that I recently read Rick Atkinson's "Liberation Trilogy" which covers (in great detail) the US Army's campaign from North Africa to D-Day and beyond.

I did not realize the extreme difficulty and intensity of the Italian campaign- with the commensurate high cost in casualties and matériel to both sides, due to a tenacious enemy in exceptionally rugged, prime defensive terrain.

I would respectfully submit that this outstanding work is a must read for all who plan to learn and play WitW.

Well, it is after midnight, and my brain is fried (that is to say, more than usual...<grin>, it is time to sign off.

Many thanks for this awesome game and the excellent, immediate help offered by the members of this forum.

Mac












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