Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (Full Version)

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pjcoia -> Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/25/2015 9:56:05 AM)

One thing which an amazing simulator like Command allows is the ability to play out any "what-ifs" that come to mind. The recent media coverage referring to Soviet incursions into Swedish waters sparked me to create a mid-Cold War scenario based around a lone Whiskey class sub snooping past Gotland. I chose 1975 as the time period for two reasons. Firstly, it was reasonable to assume that if a sub was in their waters in 1981, then 6 years earlier is not unbelievable. Secondly, I like to see what the world looked like before the 80s which we know so well from other games.

What surprised me was the limited ASW capabilities available. Neither of their submarine classes (Sjoormen and Draken) have anti-sub torpedoes (how can they be considered SSKs?). The Visby frigates can only hold the small Alouette 2 helicopter leaving only the two Halland class ships able to carry ASW helos. There are no fixed wing ASW aircraft and no sonobuoys. Surface ships don't carry ASW torpedoes and have to rely on rockets and depth charges (and often poor sonars).

In the end, what I thought would be a challenge for the Soviet side, given 24 hours to traverse a busy strait between Gotland and Oland, is not as the Swedes are nearly blind and not especially lethal.

This leads me to ask a few questions:
1. Was it a common situation for a smaller navy to have such limited ASW capability as late as 1975? I had assumed, with Sweden's airborne prowess and proximity to the USSR that they would specialise in ASW.
2. The Sjoormen class seemed to be considered one of the finest in the world when it launched - why did it not carry anti-sub torpedoes?




Broncepulido -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/25/2015 3:54:08 PM)

Not plain answers, but some links and ideas here:

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?/topic/23982-file-giuk-swedish-submarine-incident-october-17-24-2014-historical-scenarioalternate-history-scenario/

Similar incidents happened at least from 1962:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents

About Sjoormen and Swedish ASW torpedoes, and ASW details:
- Most of ASW equipment, as ASW rails or throwers are not detailed or mentioned in Jane's, Conway's and other works, but it is in fact emplaced on the ships.
- To keep his neutrality Sweden did not buy usually foreign military equipment, and had to wait to develop some complex equipment, as ASW torpedoes.
- The Sjoormen class, in service from 1968 was equipped with 2x400mm ASW torpedo tubes (I dont know what type, if any, of torpedo employed by Sweden on those 400mm TT before 1975).
- From my own research, the oldest known Swedish ASW torpedo is the Tp42 series, just in service in your choosed date of 1975, and it should be clearly employed in Sjoormen and other uses:
- Tp42 (1975): aircraft use. The Swedish 4xVertol 107-II-15/HKP-4B minelayer/ASW/SAR helicopters (1964-2008)can employ 6xDepth charge Type 51 (model 1951?), or 4xTp42 torpedoes, or 3xDepth charge + 2xTp42, or 2xTp45 (1993?), or 3xDepth charge + 1xTp45. Same warloads on 8xVertol 107-II-16/HKP-4C (1973-2008) and 4xHKP-4D (1991-2008, converted from the SAR type HKP-4A). ASW variants retired apparently 2008, HKP-4 employed for SAR and firefighting to 2011.
- Tp421 (1975): submarine use.



Broncepulido -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/25/2015 4:01:17 PM)

I see now in Conway's 1947-1995 the previous Swedish submarine clases Hajen and Draken are devoid of 400mm TT, they've only 533mm, probably without any type of ASW torpedoes. And probably also Swedish Navy very scarce ASW assets in 1975, but higher levels than in 2014-2015, as the HKP-4 ASW helicopters were retired 2008 without replacement!



magi -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/25/2015 4:32:20 PM)

This is an interesting question…and I suspect the answer in their national policy in this area… lies in their strategic thinking…I believe it's probably about… Geographic position… Economics… And resources/assets… What would be their missions/goals… How much could they effectively do in the East/West conflict…?
While Sweden may not have had many effective assets in the Baltic… I am certain NATO did.... Also on the NATO side… It would not be difficult to bottle up the Russians in the Baltic and deny them access to the north Atlantic… As was done to the Germans in two world wars......

Sweden HAS always maintained in nonaligned East West policy with NATO during the Cold War… While not a member they are a cooperative partner with NATO… Especially since the end of the Soviet Union… and have been very active in many NATO missions… Especially in a humanitarian roll… illuminating there noble national character…
It is really interesting given your position… To try to define defense policies that are in your interests… that are achievable… I believe it is for interesting that you consider this thinking as it applies to Sweden now… The rest is history… And you can read about it....




FlyingBear -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/25/2015 10:07:17 PM)

Consider the same scenario with British or Canadian platforms (two navies that were mainly "ASW specialists" at that time). Not too different in terms of sonar capabilities and ship launched weapons perhaps? Limbo vs. Bofors 375 mm ASW rockets. US ships, SQS-26 + ASROC - very different.

Another thing: The Whiskey's sonar range is only marginally better than the surface ships' sonar range (not convinced that is realistic, but still). I find subs like the Whiskey, Romeo and Foxtrot need to rely on visual periscope search to find anything at all in the game.

Helicopters would be land based and rely mainly dipping sonar.

If "snooping past Gotland" means passing between Gotland and the mainland that is a rather big area to find a submarine in. If patrolling off Visby - very different.

Is the Whiskey trying to transit an area patrolled by the ASW vessels while avoiding detection, or is it simply trying to attack the ASW vessels? Again - very different.



pjcoia -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/26/2015 2:51:51 AM)

Hi all,

Thanks for your thoughts!

@Broncepulido: In the databases, the HKP-4B/C only receives torpedoes from 1984 onwards, the listing from 1973-0 (CWDB) only carries DCs. If Sweden had to develop it domestically, perhaps it took a while for the airborne systems to be developed and rolled out? The Nacken class carries the Tp421 in 400mm TT and arrives in 1979. The Sjorrmen entry covering 1989-1997 give it the Tp431 in 400mm TT, the prior time period appears to only be covered by the 1968-0 entry. This Google result suggests that production did not commence until 1976 and therefore it wouldn't have been available: Google books search

I believe I read somewhere that "surface only" torpedoes could hit snorkelling submarines, so perhaps that was sufficient.

@FlyingBear:

Good points, there seems to be a tipping point in the 80s when ASW became more sophisticated, and maybe I'm too coloured by the powerful weaponry the US and USSR had. Although the British military was active throughout the 60s and 70s they didn't seem to have many ASW situations. It is what I love about the Command platform though, to experience the combat situation through any country/time period!

You're spot on with the last two points - the objective of the scenario was to avoid detection. It turns out to be quite a large amount of sea, and the mission of avoiding detection makes it too easy. I think I'll have to tighten it up by making the goal of the Soviet player to identify a certain ship or a number of ships to introduce the need for closeness.



Broncepulido -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/26/2015 8:16:18 AM)

I think the systems in HKP-4 (in service 1964) and Sjoormen (in service 1968) were developed in parallel with the Tp42 torpedo, and when it was produced and deployed (1975-1976) the systems should be ready, but it's only an informed guess.

About HKP-4 and his weapons:
quote:

Weapons systems that were used for anti-submarine warfare was sjunbomb (note: depth charge) 51 which was mounted in racks on each side of the helicopter. Each rack held three depth charges. The helicopter could also take a torpedo 45 on each side. Former armed helicopter with the much poorer hitter 42.
Question: former helicopters or the HKP-4 previously?


At least HKP-1 and HKP-6 were employed for ASW (I remember a photo of Swedish Jet Ranger with ASW weapons, and other of HKP-4 with 4xTp42, but I will look for them):
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_206

Later more, I hope ...



pjcoia -> RE: Question about Swedish ASW capabilities (1/26/2015 10:21:56 PM)

@Broncepulido

Perhaps there's a gap in the DBs for Sjoormen which could be rectified, but I don't have hard information to make a concrete recommendation in the appropriate thread. Either way, it wouldn't change the scenario I'm working on :)

The Bell in the DB carries the Mk44 torpedo which is basically the only ASW torpedo for Sweden in 1975.




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