Help needed for air war introductory campaign (Full Version)

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ParaB -> Help needed for air war introductory campaign (2/2/2015 2:38:59 PM)

Just got WitW a few days ago and am slowly playing through the introductory campaigns. I've played WitE before so the game system isn't that new to me. But I have some serious problems with the air war introduction campain: I simply can't seem to win this one, on easy difficulty. [:o]
Best I've done after 4 or 5 tries was ~500 VPs (1.700 bombing VPs) which resulted in an axis minor victory.

The main problem seems to be my heavy losses on bombing missions. I lost ~1.200 aircraft, axis lost 800. RAF BC losses seem to be especially heavy.

- I transferred all RAF nightfighters to bomber command
- BC targets manpower at Hamburg, Köln, Ruhr
- 8th AF targets HI, oil and fuel at Hamburg, Köln, Ruhr
- 15th AF targets oil and fuel around Ploesti/Bucharest
- medium intensity in fair weather, high intensity in good weather
- ~20k ft altitude for night bombing, 27k ft for day bombing
- all strat bombing set to 0 area
- raids scheduled 1/3/5/7

I'd appreciate any suggestions and help.





marion61 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 2:51:57 PM)

Are you plotting your own paths? If you use the "shift o" key, you can see light and heavy flak concentrations and plot your course around them. Also are you flying strategic recon flights before your bombers go in? Raising your recon levels will increase your damage significantly. Put bombers on rest if they get low on morale. I use 60 or 70 as the cut off forn normal operations and depending on if I'm pushing I will fly them lower, but 40 morale is the lowest and only for a turn or two during a push. This will keep your operational losses down. That's all I got.[8D]



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 3:19:11 PM)

I've done some manual plotting but since flak losses are only a minor problem it didn't change much. And yeah, I do plot recon missions.

I just started a new campaign and after 2 turns I have lost 188 AC to air combat, 67 to flak and 185 due to operational losses. Especially the last figure seems very high to me.

Problem is that losing 200+ AC each turn simply kills my VPs.







ird -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 3:52:05 PM)

I'm struggling with the air war too, particularly with that scenario. I've moved on to the Italian campaign to help me get used to it. This discussion might help a bit:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3794004



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 4:12:33 PM)

Thank, ird.

Not too much info though. The killer for me seems to be that RAF night bombing missions are doing very little damage with very high losses. High intensity missions in excellent weather are the worst culprit.

Need to experiment some more. So far I simply can't manage to end this scenario with much more than 500 VP.

[:(]



JocMeister -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 4:32:22 PM)

Don´t do night bombings. Even less so in the latest BETA where NFs are more deadly. Damage in night attacks is so low you are mostly just wasting bombers for nothing. Going by day the losses will be just marginally bigger.

IMO and all that.



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 4:36:38 PM)

Yep, that's pretty much my impression right now. The RAF BC gets slaughtered in my games, and all that for a 1% reduction in manpower in a single city. Hardly seems worth it.




JocMeister -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 4:47:52 PM)

Here is a very good thread to read!

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3793940



HMSWarspite -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 4:52:38 PM)

Seriously disagree with you there. I routinely get Manpower damage on a raid, and have had reports of 60%+ in one raid. You can also hit other targets occasionally. Before 8AF gets P51s it is the only way to get damage on German deep targets (affordably). I run full time BC and 8AF raids and aim to sustain 1% air losses long term.

Rest units when morale drops or fatigue rises. Don't use intense AD without good reason. Plot to avoid Flak. Fly as high as you can with BC, and 25k plus with 8AF. I would need to see what else you are doing. As a guide, I run at 300 losses per day with spikes to 5-600 for major invasions and so on. I am early in a game present, but have 46 bombing points by the start of turn 9 (i.e. 8 air phases so far...but points per turn climbing. I like to aim for double figures). Lost 1335 level bombers, but a lot of those are mediums.

EDIT: Ah, sorry. Missed you were talking about the Introductory Air Campaign. Training only I think, not necessarily competitive...



loki100 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 4:58:59 PM)

I think you are pretty much guarenteed to *lose* this scenario, its use really is as a means to learn the basics of setting the strategic airwar (which is missing from all the other scenarios) and try out ideas.

For what its worth, I'd dissent from the advice above*. Bomber Command can do a lot of damage at night but you need to build up slowly (which is why a 4 turn scenario is a bit limiting). For a start check over your payloads, make sure the Lancasters at least have incendiaries. Build up recon, that really helps. Set up a pattern of recon days 1/2, bomb 3/4, recon 5, bomb 6. Don't mess about with small raids, there is nothing subtle about the BC campaign, when you get a hit you want it to be a big hit.

In the campaign, dance around, shift targets, I'm also now taking the view that picking single hexes is the way to go. After the turn, look for where the enemy fighters were (you can lose a lot of bombers over the Netherlands, even off the English coast), plan your air superiority around that or adjust routes to try and avoid those areas (this is one reason to leave some NF in fighter command)

As in the advice above, don't use low morale units, they will most likely just take losses. Also don't use low experience units, put them to train till they can at least bomb the right continent. I've a little pile of notes with altitudes and defense strength (forget what the proper term is), the Bostons are vulnerable so are the Wellington Xs. The Mosquito bombers are vulnerable (low defense) but can fly high.

What I find in 1943 is amongst all the raids that terrorise the neighbouring cows, a few hit (and this adds up in VPs) and every now and then you hit very hard. As you build experience, keep fatigue down, and rest low morale units, you'll find those raids that really work become more common. But its a slow process.

*edit - not what HMSWarspite has said, his post arrived while I was typing and explaining to one of the cats that their evening meal will be delayed [;)] ... his comments are spot on



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 5:09:09 PM)

Warpspite, do you have any ideas regarding the introductory campaign? If it's simply not winnable it's OK. I'm just wondering if I'm doing some very basic mistake here. Because it's, well, an introductory campaign. ;)

For example, RAF BC simply does next to no damage for me. I send them in at the standard altitude (18k feet) to hit manpower but I hardly see more than 1-2% of manpower reduction. Right now I'm tempted to just try playing that campaign with 8th and 15 AF alone and see how it goes.

EDIT:


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

EDIT: Ah, sorry. Missed you were talking about the Introductory Air Campaign. Training only I think, not necessarily competitive...




quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I think you are pretty much guarenteed to *lose* this scenario, its use really is as a means to learn the basics of setting the strategic airwar (which is missing from all the other scenarios) and try out ideas.


Ah, Ok.



nedcorleone1 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 5:14:41 PM)

After toying around with the intro campaign, I've concluded that it is simply the Kobayashi Maru scenario all over again. You're guaranteed to lose but you learn by losing anyway.



JocMeister -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 6:02:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Seriously disagree with you there. I routinely get Manpower damage on a raid, and have had reports of 60%+ in one raid.


Yes, but more often then not you don´t hit anything or do so in single digit %. But you can still lose up to 60-80 bombers.

If you average out the good ones with the bad ones over 10 turns or so and check your losses you will find that you most likely would have been better off going in by day. This for the simple fact that you might just have needed a fifth of the sorties to do the same damage during the day. So while looking at a single day light raid might look bad doing the same damage at night might require you go in 5-10 nights. So to get a fair comparison you would need to add up all the losses from all the night raids.

I still believe that when you look at the losses/damage ratio doing daylight attacks will be superior to doing night attacks.



marion61 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 6:14:58 PM)

My best piece of advice is to check your recon levels in the hex your attacking. You'll only get single digit bombing results if your air recon is low or non-exsistant. Bombers shouldn't fly on day one unless you have some recent recon on the target. Your wasting bombers bombing targets that way.



Nico165b165 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 7:13:05 PM)

678 vs challenging AI. Just 22 short of minor victory. 1645 bombing VP, 967 aircrafts lost (air combat 493, flak 135, operationnal 339). 758 axis aircrafts lost (462, 0, 296).

So I think it is winnable, minor victory at least.

Couple more things :

Micro your recon. The brits have recon groups scattered everywhere, some with low cam pay load, some with high cam... You wanna use them all (use commander report to find where they are) with high cam at 30.000 feet. And don't forget to set target priorities. This way I got more 3-4% than 1-2% with bomber command against manpower at night, and even once a 13% and a 40% against HI.

Low intensity raids only with bomber command. You don't have enough NF to cover more than 1 or 2 raids the same day. Do more, and you risk a fight between the famous 300-pack from the Luftwaffe and your unescorted bombers.

Pay attention to the weather. Good or excellent weather (= no rain) is better to see your targets, but also better for the Luftwaffe. You need to take less risks when the sky is clear. Think about weather, intensity and escort together. What you absolutely want to avoid is a big (300 bombers or more) unescorted raid against 300 Luftwaffe fighters in clear skies. Day or night, this will be a massacre.

I don't find the VP balance of the air tutorial so bad : to win it, you really need to learn a lot of things which will be very useful in a campaign.



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 8:24:05 PM)

Finally managed a draw, 631 VP, 1415 bombing VP. 784 aircraft lost, 733 axis aircraft lost.

Weeeee!

[:D]

I usually set up 2 targets for 8th AF (3 raids/week, 2 strikes/day), 1 target for RAF BC and 15th AF, both 2 raids/week, 1 strike/day per turn. Lots of recon in between.

In excellent weather I reduced the number of strikes/day for 8th AF to 1. Until the last turn I had actually lost less aircraft than the axis.

I tend to agree that with better micromanagement (and a bit of luck) a minor victory may well be possible.






Nico165b165 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 9:37:55 PM)

Got it [:D]

[image]http://www.forty-two.me/files/airvictory.jpg[/image]

Bombing VP 1730
WA losses 1021 (air combat 500, flak 140, operationnal 381)
Axis losses 805 (486, 0, 319)

I found one more thing to micro : intensity doesn't mean the same number of raids/day for every air HQ. Low can mean 2 or 4, etc. You have to set this up manually. I never used more than 2, except on turn 1. Lots of 1 too to make sure there would be escorts with the raid.

Now don't ask me how to score a decisive victory...

Waiting eagerly for the whole air campaign scenario. It promises to be a whole game in itself !



HMSWarspite -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/2/2015 10:03:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Seriously disagree with you there. I routinely get Manpower damage on a raid, and have had reports of 60%+ in one raid.


Yes, but more often then not you don´t hit anything or do so in single digit %. But you can still lose up to 60-80 bombers.

If you average out the good ones with the bad ones over 10 turns or so and check your losses you will find that you most likely would have been better off going in by day. This for the simple fact that you might just have needed a fifth of the sorties to do the same damage during the day. So while looking at a single day light raid might look bad doing the same damage at night might require you go in 5-10 nights. So to get a fair comparison you would need to add up all the losses from all the night raids.

I still believe that when you look at the losses/damage ratio doing daylight attacks will be superior to doing night attacks.

Are you talking in the full campaign? How do you lose 60-80 bombers from BC per week? You are overworking BC, or your target selection/raid plotting is off.

Do you mean use BC in the day? I have real issues with the game if that is sustainable..



JocMeister -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/3/2015 7:01:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Are you talking in the full campaign? How do you lose 60-80 bombers from BC per week? You are overworking BC, or your target selection/raid plotting is off.

Do you mean use BC in the day? I have real issues with the game if that is sustainable..


Yes, I´m talking about a full campaign. But you miss my point. Losses are about the same weather you fly day or night. Flying night might cost you 60-80 planes while flying at day will cost you perhaps 100-120. Not a huge difference. Losses are unsustainable night or day. And even if losses were cut by 80% at night it still wouldn´t make any sense because it would still be a waste of time. You do so little damage it can be repaired faster then you can bomb it.

With the buff for NFs in the BETA it makes even less sense to fly at night.



loki100 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/3/2015 7:54:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


With the buff for NFs in the BETA it makes even less sense to fly at night.


one of the great things about this game is the scope for disagreement over what works etc. Also, of course, the difference when up against the (good) AI and a player is important. But this is a well escorted night bombing raid on T11. Set up for recon between the bombing stages and I think you can see the effectiveness build up over the week. I also picked a target with high manpower/low flak and I suspect the German fighters then had to travel some distance.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img537/207/qfosHa.jpg[/image]

Now I did another raid in the same turn with the same set up which gave me the usual *mheh* outcome, so not claiming this is foolproof (or even me-proof), but you clearly can get good night results when you micro-manage



JocMeister -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/3/2015 9:33:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

one of the great things about this game is the scope for disagreement over what works etc. Also, of course, the difference when up against the (good) AI and a player is important. But this is a well escorted night bombing raid on T11. Set up for recon between the bombing stages and I think you can see the effectiveness build up over the week. I also picked a target with high manpower/low flak and I suspect the German fighters then had to travel some distance.


Absolutely! Wouldn´t be much of a game if there was only "one way to do it". [:)]

I have never gotten as good results as you got at night despite doing everything "by the book" though. So one could speculate that results like that are quite uncommon while single digit damage is the norm.







ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/3/2015 6:42:13 PM)

After many many tries with the introductory campaign I can now say that I can get two-digit results when bombing manpower with BC on a regular basis.

In my last run I was able to damage Hamburg manpower in 4 turns to 80%. In another I bombed Cologne to 75%.

I just have to watch our for those excellent weather nights.




Chuske -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/3/2015 7:38:22 PM)

Hmmm after reading this thread I thought I'd try this as not really tested the air tutorial. Been bombing in campaign sinec end of the beta test with reasonable results but thought I can maybe learn something more here.

I'm not even getting near the level of VPs for a draw. I'm hitting oil, fuel near Ploesti with 15th, Hamburg oil/fuel with 8th and Manpower in Ruhr and Cologne with BC. Total losses for first turn 140 for all airforces together.

My method was:-
1) Switch off all auto-naval in doctrine as don't want anything flying that is of no benefit for strat bombing and losing me VPs
2) Moved all NFs to BC and rebased them in S.E England
3) I'm using Coastal recon assets for BC. Not changing HQ or rebasing as I need them recon from turn 1. Also noticed they are by default set to low camera and so changed loadout to high camera + drop tanks.

My city bombing ADs I went for 2 or 3 big strikes a week with Req AC set to 9999 and Num Strike set to 1 and I was targetting just 1 hex for each strike.

Recon also just 1 hex over target.

The 8th and 15th results were pretty good at 50% damage on the fuel/oil targets but BC was still only 1, 2 or 3% manpower damage on Cologne.

My recon was also no good at all. Target hexes for recon I got 0 recon points but surrounding hexes got 4 recon pts which seems very odd to me??

Anyone else noticing this recon issue? What recon % are you getting in this scenario?



soeren01 -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/4/2015 7:43:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonboym

Hmmm after reading this thread I thought I'd try this as not really tested the air tutorial. Been bombing in campaign sinec end of the beta test with reasonable results but thought I can maybe learn something more here.

I'm not even getting near the level of VPs for a draw. I'm hitting oil, fuel near Ploesti with 15th, Hamburg oil/fuel with 8th and Manpower in Ruhr and Cologne with BC. Total losses for first turn 140 for all airforces together.

My method was:-
1) Switch off all auto-naval in doctrine as don't want anything flying that is of no benefit for strat bombing and losing me VPs
2) Moved all NFs to BC and rebased them in S.E England
3) I'm using Coastal recon assets for BC. Not changing HQ or rebasing as I need them recon from turn 1. Also noticed they are by default set to low camera and so changed loadout to high camera + drop tanks.

My city bombing ADs I went for 2 or 3 big strikes a week with Req AC set to 9999 and Num Strike set to 1 and I was targetting just 1 hex for each strike.

Recon also just 1 hex over target.

The 8th and 15th results were pretty good at 50% damage on the fuel/oil targets but BC was still only 1, 2 or 3% manpower damage on Cologne.

My recon was also no good at all. Target hexes for recon I got 0 recon points but surrounding hexes got 4 recon pts which seems very odd to me??

Anyone else noticing this recon issue? What recon % are you getting in this scenario?



Did you set your recon to strategic recon and only 1 hex ?



Chuske -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/4/2015 9:37:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: soeren01]

Did you set your recon to strategic recon and only 1 hex ?


In the most part yes as I was focusing recon and bombing on specific hexes to maximise short term results.



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/4/2015 12:49:42 PM)

1st turn in the introductory air campaign:

Target Hamburg

RAF BC bombing schedule set to 3+6, 2 strikes/day, 18k feet.
RAF BC recon schedule set to 1+2+3+4+5+6+7, 1 strike/day, 30k feet

Result: 25% manpower damage, 24 bombers lost, 19 enemy AC destroyed.

Turn 2:

Same settings as above,

Result: 15% manpower damage, 33 bombers lost, 16 enemy AC destroyed

That's a 40% reduction in manpower, as well as some damage to uboat factories and heavy industries

Not too shabby IMO.




Chuske -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/4/2015 3:15:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ParaB

1st turn in the introductory air campaign:

Target Hamburg

RAF BC bombing schedule set to 3+6, 2 strikes/day, 18k feet.
RAF BC recon schedule set to 1+2+3+4+5+6+7, 1 strike/day, 30k feet

Result: 25% manpower damage, 24 bombers lost, 19 enemy AC destroyed.

Turn 2:

Same settings as above,

Result: 15% manpower damage, 33 bombers lost, 16 enemy AC destroyed

That's a 40% reduction in manpower, as well as some damage to uboat factories and heavy industries

Not too shabby IMO.




Did you change the Required Aircraft or Min aircraft settings or doctrine mission pct? Or did you stick with the defaults?



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/4/2015 3:49:25 PM)

I used the default settings.

BTW I've seen strange recon results, too. Sometimes the target hex (area set to 0) shows no recon lvls at all, while adjacent hexes shows recon levels of 6 or even higher. Sometimes the target hex shows good recon lvls. No idea how that actually works.






Helpless -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/4/2015 4:07:20 PM)

quote:

Sometimes the target hex (area set to 0) shows no recon lvls at all, while adjacent hexes shows recon levels of 6 or even higher. Sometimes the target hex shows good recon lvls. No idea how that actually works.


You can ignore hex recon levels when doing strategic bombing. Strategic recon shouldn't cause hex recon values to go up, which is considered as currently active bug.



ParaB -> RE: Help needed for air war introductery campaign (2/6/2015 12:31:41 PM)

I've finally done it:

[sm=happy0029.gif]

[img]http://abload.de/img/witwbc02itx3g.jpg[/img]

WA AC losses: 659
Axis AC losses: 730

RAF BC hit Hamburg twice a week
8th AF hit two cities per week, each 2 days/week
15th AF hit two cities per weak, each 2 days/week

All raids used 2 strikes/day, except in excellent weather where I reduced them to 1 for BC and 15th AF.





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