Q historians (Full Version)

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jshan -> Q historians (2/17/2015 6:40:55 PM)

How many units did the Axis withdraw from Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia?



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Q historians (2/17/2015 7:14:45 PM)

The Germans evacuated about 52,000 military personal and a unknown number of civil personnel. No units of any measurable size was captured.
The Italians evacuated about 62,000 military personal but about 140,000 were captured.



LiquidSky -> RE: Q historians (2/17/2015 7:46:15 PM)



THe amount of Flak between Messina and the mainland was too intense for the allies to bomb the ferries. All in all they only managed to sink one.



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/17/2015 8:09:40 PM)

Germany evacuated 65000 mens; 78 Tanks; 350 Guns; 16000 vehicle; 39000 tons freight



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/17/2015 8:12:15 PM)

Italiens lost 160.000 mens, most are captured



Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/17/2015 9:30:40 PM)

Different story for the Luftwaffe on Sicily. Testament to the effectiveness of the aerial bombardment the Axis left behind 1100 aircraft unservicable on the ground including ME109 (280) FW190 (70) JU88 (80) Me210 (29) ME110 (14) JU87 (8).




jshan -> RE: Q historians (2/17/2015 11:41:19 PM)

Thanks.



micheljq -> RE: Q historians (2/18/2015 5:48:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Different story for the Luftwaffe on Sicily. Testament to the effectiveness of the aerial bombardment the Axis left behind 1100 aircraft unservicable on the ground including ME109 (280) FW190 (70) JU88 (80) Me210 (29) ME110 (14) JU87 (8).




Interesting what did the allies made of these aircrafts? scrap for metal?

Michel.



Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/18/2015 6:40:51 PM)


The Allies were quite thorough to the level of testing the residual fuel in the tanks to establish from its chemical fingerprint which refinery made it and how the actual fuel got to the front but I imagine once they were through they ended up scrap.



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/18/2015 8:53:04 PM)

The beginnig strenght bevor the Sicilia Invasion was 1250 planes ( german and italy together). Half oft them where german planes, and only 320 german planes and 200 Italien planes where combat ready.
The number of combat ready german planes:
90 ju88
30 me 110 and 210
130 me 109
40 fw 190
30 reccon ju88 and me 109

So 1100 german/ italian planes left behindert is mutch to high!!!!!!!



Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/18/2015 9:15:33 PM)


I believe I said 1100 *Axis* planes, The battle lasted 38 days and I'm quoting the official figures



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/18/2015 9:23:19 PM)

In the 38 days oft combat, there was no reinforcement oft the Luftflotte 2 in Sicilia or the iItalien airforce. So they can not lost 1100 planes!



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/18/2015 9:51:41 PM)

2. (F) 122 airfield trapatani
Stab JG 53 airfield camiso
II/JG 53 airfield gerbini
III/JG 53 airfield catane
Stab JG 77 airfield trapani
I JG 53 airfield trapani
Stab skg 10 airfield gerbini
I SKG 10 airfield gerbini
II SKG 10 airfield San Pietro
IV SKG 10 airfield gerbini
II NJG2 airfield comisio
Stab Sch.G.2 airfield castelvetrano
I/Sch.G.2 airfield castelvetrano
II/Sch.G2 airfield castelvetrano

Luftflotte 2 on sicillia



Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 12:30:50 PM)

You can read the official report of the air campaign it's online and fairly comprehensive.



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 12:55:23 PM)

Zentral Bibliothek der Bundeswehr and the gate to fortress Europe/kurowski 2009



Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 1:30:40 PM)

So they were exaggerating the total by claiming a total of around 500 German (and compounding that by liying about the actual models) and 600 Italian planes left behind? What were the total axis losses in the air? Is that why no replacement aircraft or parts could reach Sicily the Allies stopped them? So out of your total of by your admission of 1250 axis aircraft (I have read sources stating 1400) and there was only a small proportion of them serviceable at the start of the campaign does not 1100 unserviceable by the end sound entirely plausible?



Great_Ajax -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 1:56:12 PM)

Educated guess here. I believe those captured airframes were operational losses that accumulated over two years of the Germans and Italians running missions out of Sicily. Those airframes were kept around to be cannibalized for spare parts. This was quite common. I alsk think the Germans were still getting aircraft replacements while deployed in Sicily. I/JG 53 reported 38 new machines in May, 21 in June, and 42 in July.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

So they were exaggerating the total by claiming a total of around 500 German (and compounding that by liying about the actual models) and 600 Italian planes left behind? What were the total axis losses in the air? Is that why no replacement aircraft or parts could reach Sicily the Allies stopped them? So out of your total of by your admission of 1250 axis aircraft (I have read sources stating 1400) and there was only a small proportion of them serviceable at the start of the campaign does not 1100 unserviceable by the end sound entirely plausible?




Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 2:53:29 PM)

I don't doubt either the canalbalism or the Germans got replacement aircraft for one second, if the Germans ever had of captured Langford Lodge they would have found 500 USAAF aircraft in the process of canabalization what is interesting in Sicily is the proportion to the numbers involved.



Gettysburg -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 7:47:31 PM)

German Combat losses over sicillia, 300 planes, More than 400 damaged german planes left behind on sicillia



Smirfy -> RE: Q historians (2/19/2015 8:10:16 PM)

Which tallies with the official figures so if you count up all the numbers for models in post 6 that comes to over 400 planes I forgot to mention the solitary Hs 129 BTW.



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