RE: Research Unleashed (Full Version)

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apd1004 -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/14/2015 3:22:27 AM)

I'm still having a blast with it as-is for now. I tend to force myself into "appropriate" sized ship classes by purposely limiting the number of habs & LS as the core component to establish ship class size. You could easily build a size 500 escort but then why have different ship classes if you do that.

Here's a few things I've noticed, not complaints or even suggestions for change really. Just observations. Most revolve around the component improvement glidescope as I like to call it. In vanilla, certain upgrades to a brand new version of a component such as going from small fuel cells to standard is a significant spike in ability. It seems more realistic that way and is worth putting some effort into getting to the upgrade sooner than later. Here it seems the improvement graph goes up the same steady glidescope whether you're still in small fuel cells or moving to standard. Again, not a complaint. Not sure yet if that is the case with all components. A solution might be to make the glidescope more shallow in improvements to the same component, with a nice spike when going to a totally new upgrade of the same component, and then shallowing out again to further improvements to the same component. If that makes any sense...

I do like a few cases I've seen where upgrading the older component costs less research than it does to get a whole new component at the same level. I have noticed that is not the case clear across the board, only in some cases is it like that and I can't think of one off the top of my head.

I also like the trees in general, they seem much more logical now and more detailed. Splitting out Weapons, Energy, and High Tech research into their own paths and then linking a wonder to each was genius. Ditto for the colonization breakdown.

Another example somewhat related to the first one is I used to go to great lengths in vanilla to get Turbothrusters from the Ackdarians either through trading or espionage because they were a significant increase over protons and even early equinox. Here the equivilent level proton is not much worse than the first level Turbothruster. Solution here might be to make the Turbothruster available one or maybe even two levels earlier or even totally disconnecting it into its own path separate from the generic one, thus making it a more substantial catch if you can get it "when it first comes out". Hardly worth risking a seasoned intel agent trying to get it when it becomes available now because all I have to do is research one more level of proton and I'm pretty much there.

It may take many playings to tweak numbers for each tech and there are so many techs to tweak I think it might end up a whole new product.

Anyway, great work. This will keep me busy for quite a while.



Tikigit -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/15/2015 3:48:54 PM)

Would love to see proper support for Extended Universe. It's very much the foundation for core play. [:D]



solops -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/16/2015 3:18:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

Hi thanks to you both apd1004 and Retreat1970 for spotting and reporting those errors. Can't believe I missed the error with the Hitech labs!

I just want to reiterate that while I'm happy to make corrections to errors, I'm also open to suggestion for changes and improvements. I've been running a version which uses larger but more effective life support and habs, so you don't need as many on the ships and bases. I could incorporate that into the mod if people want it. Downside is that ships and bases don't get much boarding defense from habs, but as someone who designs all ships from scratch I prefer the convenience of not adding so many habs.

Osito

quote:

1.03 - corrected Hitech Research Phase I, II, III and IV so that they actual improve Hitech research instead of weapons research (thanks to apd1004)


You know, I thought there was something wonky going on with R&D, but I never could pin it down. Thanks!



mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/20/2015 1:58:49 AM)

Awesome! Just... awesome! :D

I love the far more logical and interesting tech tree!

Very minor, but I would allow point defense from either fighters or missiles, as it's a useful tech against either lineage, so reasonable to develop in response to either.

Hyperdrive: I love the speed limits, and slow to engage early drives. But I would make the critique that there isn't enough differentiation in speed for the Fast Jump vs. High Speed vs. Efficient lines.
also, suggestion: have the Fast Jump drives have a static energy usage - like most modern equipment: we trade spending constant power to make things turn on faster (hot-on).

You could even have 4 lineages: Hot Start Fast-moving, Hot Start Efficient Energy, Cold Start Fast-moving, and Cold Start Efficient Energy. Prolly more work than is worth it - better is to help make it a more severe choice between Fast and High-Speed. I want to have to have a difficult choice to make! :)



mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/20/2015 2:28:34 AM)

I keep thinking that bases shouldn't be such pushovers....

In SFB (star fleet battles - ancient pen & paper tabletop tactical battle game) - bases had weapons that only a base could have. They were way better than what you could mount on a ship. Lots of armor, lots of shields, plenty of power, and excellent guns. Made attacking one require a fleet.

DW doesn't make it a solo-job to take out a DFB, but ... well, too close, IMO. A base should be an expense, and a seriously tough opponent. Say - 2x shields & armor of capital ship, and big weapons that one cannot reasonably put on anything short of endgame capital ships - Ultra-heavy Beam weapons, Super-heavy rail-gun, Magnus-V torpedo launchers, etc. Weapons that do around 2x the damage of the same non-base version, require enough space and power that normal ships cannot feasibly load them, etc. (it would be nice to actually simply mark them as unavailable in non-bases, but I expect that's not an option to modders in DW).



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/20/2015 7:06:18 PM)

I'll look at your point about the point defense, mordachai, as it sounds sensible. I'm also inclined to agree with your comments about bases, but is there anything that can be done about that with the present modding facilities?

A few people have commented on the hyperdrives, and I will also take a look at that. I have thought about including a static energy requirement for some hyperdrives, but I'm concerned about the effect that would have on the AI, because it doesn't necessarily design ships with enough reactors to achieve maximum speed; I may take another look at it.

I'll have a look at what apd1004 calls the Glidescope, too.

I'm happy to have this mod incorporated into other mods, if feasible. I'm thinking in particular of the weapons mod that people are looking at. In my own mod, however, I will retain all the weapon types that are available, simply because I like the variety. Also, I want to retained the overpowered end game techs: they really are end game and take some time to acquire.

I'd be interested in views on two of the weapons features in my own mod:
1. Use of so-called 'tachyon beams', which do increased damage with increased range (or, at least, they're supposed to).
2. Use of so-called nuclear missiles, which are very high powered weapons (but not a superweapon) that might take out a ship in the first salvo, but which has such a long reload time that it may not be usable for the rest of the fight.

Osito



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/21/2015 6:31:07 PM)

I have today uploaded another update along with an alternative mod which incorporates all the Research Unleashed changes, along with a change to the effectiveness of habitation and life support modules (meaning that you need fewer of them on your ships and bases).

As always, comments and criticism are welcome.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

Osito



Retreat1970 -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/23/2015 12:36:36 PM)

I like using less hab/life modules. Good change. The speed update is better as well.

I liked nuclear missiles. I don't know what Caslon missiles is supposed to mean. Nuclear I understand.

I like this mod a lot good job.



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/23/2015 2:07:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

I like using less hab/life modules. Good change. The speed update is better as well.

I liked nuclear missiles. I don't know what Caslon missiles is supposed to mean. Nuclear I understand.

I like this mod a lot good job.


I changed the missile name because of a point made by Jammersam above, i.e., that it seems a bit strange that nuclear missiles would be a mid-game tech, given that any space-faring race is likely to have nuclear missiles right from the start. So I chose the name 'caslon missiles', which is intended to be connected to caslon, which is the fuel used for the initial reactors. I'm perfectly happy to change this name again, especially if someone can come up with a better one.

Osito



mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/23/2015 7:50:10 PM)

Just my 2c - but I love the "glidescope effect". It's one of the draws to your tech tree for me. I much prefer a game where basic capabilities aren't missing at the start (or near start). That they're primitive abilities is fine.

I did some messing around with your files to begin to get a handle on how to mod research and components. Thanks for the mod - I'll be curious to see what your latest changes are ;)



mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/25/2015 1:13:29 AM)

Feedback:

Seems to me that a lot of weapon numbers in DW:U are arbitrary, and unbalanced. Not your doing, I'm sure, though there are discrepancies in your tech / component files that make upgrade techs sometimes cause the base item to back-slide (e.g. Enhanced Concussion missiles are worse than concussion missiles; or topedo launchers that jump around in size or energy requirements from one upgrade or level to the next).

All of DW:U weapons seem similar to me - hodge podge of numbers. If I do even a rudimentary dps analysis, missiles are pathetic in the extreme, with numbers like 3.3dps, compared to say blasters at dps 8dps at a similar tech level.

Please don't take this as criticism of your mod - love it :D

I'm just trying to reflect what I'm finding, and I'm playing with a mod-mod of your mod (which will be for my enjoyment unless a lot of things change and you're copacetic with my doing something with a mod based on your mod).

So far, what I'm playing with:

Torpedoes:
Role: Big [size 15], high energy use [varies, but high], slow [speed starts around 80 climbs to 280], moving bomb with good range and good dps at range, but not as good as energy weapons)
Change: Increased damage moderately & speed moderately, so that they scale up as well as the energy weapons line does (baster-line). Normalized things like launcher sizes so that ship designs are more stable (same size for new torpedo types, vary mainly warhead / range, rather than size or rate-of-fire). [keeping the same RoF in a line of weapons massively helps the player figure out whether something is - and by how much - better than the thing it improves / replaces].

Missiles:
Role: Very long range, reasonably fast, seeking weapon with large punch. Drawbacks: slow rate of fire, and -50% vs. armor, can be shot down by PD.
Increased damage greatly & speed moderately and range to 1200 or so. DPS a bit better than blasters, but remember the -50% effectiveness && subject to PD!
Note: size 16, low-power (size limits players from spamming these things)

Rail guns:
Role: Rapid-fire, long-range, inaccurate, low-power, small damage but has the partly ignores shield bonus.
Dropped range to 1000, and balanced dps between the large and small versions so that the slow take 2x size and produces just slightly more than 2x dps
The small one's advantage is more shots = more odds to hit (less eggs in a single basket). But only slightly, so mostly to player's preferences.




Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/25/2015 10:36:48 AM)

Thanks for the feedback, mordachai.

Regarding the weapons values, note that most of the weapons values were taken from those developed by Icemania in his AI Improvement mod. See this link:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3647528

and also see the specific discussion of weapons balance here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3650767

The values may seem random, but a lot of them were carefully chosen. It's very easy to change the values, but hard to balance the end result. For example, I'm aware that the changes I made to certain weapons values probably did nothing to help balance, and that my end games weapons are unlikely to be remotely balanced.

Incidentally, I looked at enhanced concussion missiles, but as far as I can see they are better than concussion missiles

Enhanced concussion vs concussion:
+1 damage
+130 range
-0.1 fire rate

Please could you provide further details if you still think this is wrong. More generally, I'd be interested in any specific example where the improvement is inferior in every respect (or most respects) to the previous version, because there is probably a mistake in the figures.

Having said all that, I do think weapons could use a complete overhaul, but I don't feel that I have the capacity to handle that, because if the whole tree is being redone, it definitely needs to be balanced and I do not have the time to balance a completely new weapons tree.

You are of course welcome to publish your own mod based on mine. Alternatively, if you prefer, I may be able to incorporate some of your changes into my mod, if I think they will enhance the mod. The only word of caution I would give here is that I'm not certain it's a good idea to have two closely related research mods. Far better to arrive at a single mod (which doesn't necessarily need to be mine), which is subsequently incorporated into other good mods, such as Haree 78's or Blackstork's.

Osito









mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/25/2015 1:40:19 PM)

I have zero interest in taking credit for anything... so if I can help you in some ways, then great, and it's your thing incorporated into Haree's / the Extended AI / etc., then I'm happy.

Agreed on the "two nearly the same." For those reasons, and my own fickle nature (I do what makes sense to me and I find time / motivation to do), I prefer not to worry much about publishing anything. So... I'm open to the possibility that something might be of use and some of my efforts can be incorporated somewhere to the community's benefit... but I won't be losing any sleep over that! :)

I worry that I am changing values without enough depth of understanding. Is there a reasons the missile dps is so low? They specifically are called out in various places in-game as a good early weapon but poor late game choice (or was that rail-guns)? Regardless - they definitely are -50% vs. armor. That's a HUGE hit. So they can take down the shields (when they hit - they're a good example of "all your eggs in one basket" - a miss is a lot of FP wasted) -- but they are much poorer at actually destroying a target (at least until armor is all gone).

Sorry if I misspoke about concussion - I meant specifically the research COMPONENT ENHANCEMENT lines, rather than the base components themselves. So I think (IIRC) that the concussion is better than seeker in all regards, but that the upgrade to seeker, or the upgrade to concuss, or both, or maybe further up the tree, have various backsliding issues (rate of fire suddenly getting better then worse, etc.) Sorry - I wrote that off of the top of my head - I didn't verify which things exactly had small glitches (again, mostly just being a bull in a china shop and making values - for now - that simply appeal to me, rather than really trying to just find & fix glitches w/o breaking / changing things whole cloth).

Thanks for the links. I'm very late to this DW party, and I suppose that has benefits (I'm enthused / new blood), and disads (I missed all of these conversations along the way). So any links to discussions of the weaposn / balance / etc., are all something I'd love to read (assuming they're focused - nobody wants to read entire forums of historic ramblings such as my own!) :)

EDIT: Oh, and as to your late-game techs - they're spozed to be somewhat off-the-rails - so unless they're underpowered, I'm not about to worry about them!

And my quick-dps analysis of weapons (using Icemania's mod: extended AI / yours), I still find this to be the king of current truth: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3650767#



mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/25/2015 10:45:42 PM)

Addendum: I'm reading through Icemania's thread now - with his discussions on weapon balance. I think my intuition that I was being a bull in china shop were correct. I think this will be time for me to play with "what-if" and look at balance in more depth as I read through the existing discussion and look at the various spreadsheets that were made to analyze it all. Thanks again for your mod. I'd like to reconcile it with Extended AI one of these days (after I play some more with the numbers / rearrange a few things to my liking :)



mordachai -> RE: Research Unleashed (3/25/2015 11:30:27 PM)

one idea I have: make an alternate tech that gives basic fighter hangar + interceptor + (new, basic) missile bomber.

This looks like it would work with the game engine, and allows a player to do missiles + fighters, instead of having the torp requirement & starting with the wrong kind of bombers. I'll likely add this very soon, to see how it works in practice. The Mortalen, who are fighters mainly - I have made fighters + missiles, so this would be a good fit for them.

Here's a screenshot of the idea so far:
[image]local://upfiles/51243/C79217A013B9458D8C62150B299FFCCE.jpg[/image]

Note that I bailed on the two-base hangar bays because the game engine always picks the first one with a hangar tech in it, and gives that as complete at the start of a normal game (for Mortalen).

So this alternate approach means that the player is completely in control as to whether to get torpedo bombers, or missile bombers, and as a nice bonus: whether to get interceptors at all!

I also had to dump dependencies on torps / missiles because there's no good way to say "requires X + one of (Y or Z)" Since all other weapon systems have not such ancillary requirement (you just get them whole by researching just the torpedo or missile or whatever), I decided that this was no loss (I still made dependencies on the hangar bays, which is more than good enough IMO).



solops -> RE: Research Unleashed (5/4/2015 3:19:56 PM)

I am REALLY disappointed that you are not continuing with this mod. I do not like Mordecai's mod due to all of the extra chrome he included (races, UI mods, etc.) most of which are difficult to filter out. Your "pure" R&D mod is much more to my liking and I encourage you to pick it back up.



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (5/4/2015 4:21:57 PM)

Hi Solops,

Thanks for the positive comments. The mod isn't so much 'dead' as 'resting', as I've been tied up with other stuff for a while.

I will fix bugs, and if people have ideas for improving the mod, I will consider them and possibly include them, provided the ideas relate to research/components/resources/facilities. Also, I will eventually take another look at the mod to see whether I can take it on to the next stage - for example overhauling the weapons research. It is likely to be a couple of months before I do anything significant, but I'll get there eventually.

Osito



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (5/5/2015 10:30:54 AM)

I mentioned in my original post that pirates get hurt by the lower hyperdrive speeds in this mod. Following some discussion in Fierceking's Starfall mod thread, it occurred to me that there may be a way around this by separating each race into 'pirate only' or 'empire only'. In effect, you would duplicate the races files of those races that can be pirates, and in one of the duplicated files they would be set to 'pirates' and in the other they would be set to 'empire'. In this way you could make certain techs available to pirates only (or empires only), and thereby give back to pirates their early game hyperdrive advantage.

Questions:
1. Anyone know whether this will actually work (or see any flaws in it)?
2. If it will work, is it something that people would like to see implemented?
3. Any thoughts on what would be an appropriate starting hyperdrive speed for pirates?

Osito



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/14/2015 12:30:15 PM)

I've just updated this mod to version 2.0, so I'm giving it a bump, in case anyone is interested ...



Franky007 -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/14/2015 4:07:10 PM)

The DesignTemplates for the Pirate are not loaded properly:
Because they don't have a race folders

For example you should have a folder named
..\Customization\Research Unleashed - Version 2\designTemplates\phaerax Pirates\pirate
for the Phaerax pirates!

You can see it by checking the Fleewhen behaviour form the destroyer for example.



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/14/2015 4:14:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Francoy

The DesignTemplates for the Pirate are not loaded properly:
Because they don't have a race folders

For example you should have a folder named
..\Customization\Research Unleashed - Version 2\designTemplates\phaerax Pirates\pirate
for the Phaerax pirates!

You can see it by checking the Fleewhen behaviour form the destroyer for example.


Thanks, I overlooked that. Same problem with policies too, I think. At least it's a reasonably easy fix, which I will do right now.

Osito



Radishgast -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/14/2015 8:25:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

I've just updated this mod to version 2.0, so I'm giving it a bump, in case anyone is interested ...



Thank you, Osito!!! I absolutely adore your research mod. I use it with Mordachai's bundle of moddy goodness. I hope he updates his bundle to include this soon. :)



apd1004 -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/14/2015 9:09:16 PM)

I've tried many of the other mods out there, yet I keep coming back to this one because it is the closest to my style of play. Just uploaded 2.0 and giving it a spin with a new game.

Keep up the good work!



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/14/2015 10:10:13 PM)

Thanks for the positive comments. Please do remember that if you think something might be better done another way, or doesn't work well, I am open to reconsidering. Feedback is always welcome. I also have more time than when I originally released this mod in February, so I do have the time to implement changes and also incorporate other mods, if there's a demand for it (and the original modder is happy with it).

Osito



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/16/2015 3:50:26 AM)

So far loving this v2.01 Mod.

Couple of comments, possible issues.

-During Race selection. In the Special Technologies field it lists ALL the tech lines. Makes it hard to see any special techs, or lack thereof. Maybe just use a category definition. Race = Balanced, Race = Efficient, to indicate a package. Then listing the truly Special techs? So if I see balanced I know all basic lines are active, etc...

-Even though I have 'only show latest' component selected it shows all components.

-Is it intended that the Kaldos Drives are both Higher Speed and Faster Initiating than the Callista-Dal? Other than a minor energy cost reduction there seems little to recommend ever using them.



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/16/2015 3:20:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

So far loving this v2.01 Mod.

Couple of comments, possible issues.

-During Race selection. In the Special Technologies field it lists ALL the tech lines. Makes it hard to see any special techs, or lack thereof. Maybe just use a category definition. Race = Balanced, Race = Efficient, to indicate a package. Then listing the truly Special techs? So if I see balanced I know all basic lines are active, etc...

-Even though I have 'only show latest' component selected it shows all components.

-Is it intended that the Kaldos Drives are both Higher Speed and Faster Initiating than the Callista-Dal? Other than a minor energy cost reduction there seems little to recommend ever using them.


It will be a few days before I can access my DW computer, but I will look at these issues as soon as I can.

Specifically:

- on the race selection point, I have seen that too. I'll see if there's anything that can be done about it.
- I wasn't aware of your point on the components. To be honest, I would even know how to get the game to change this in the first place, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'd be interested to hear about it. I will take a look at it, though.
- I tend to agree with your hyperdrive point. I need to revisit this and introduce a bigger distinction. Perhaps I'll make the Callista Dal slower but more efficient, so you can go for significantly higher range at the expense of speed.

Let me know how you're finding the pirates and whether you think they need a further speed buff (or even a debuff).

Osito



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/16/2015 6:28:39 PM)

Pirates set on Distant, Weak, as I didn't feel like dealing with them.

Met three Pirate empires by Year 11. One was so weak as to be safely ignored. They other two, met later were a bit ridiculous. Demanded a huge protection and when I didn't pay, I couldn't as I was in negative cash flow atm, they sent a group of 8-10 destroyer class ships and soon all my outsystem mines were being destroyed/captured. They tried to board but by default I put Hab modules to 300 boarding defense so commonly failed but were still credited with a raid. Mines had 600 Shields and 320 boarding strength, and the third pirate captured every base they attacked.
By year 12 my Espionage had stolen 49% of Colonization Tech, all the first two Gravitic and Railgun upgrades. The first two Long Ranged Scanner techs and Component Prefabrication from the pirates. A couple other techs were partially developed, the ones listed i hit enough to steal the completed tech.

On a huge map when I stole the Operations map from the biggest Pirate, they were based 2/3 of the map away. So yes WAY TOO fast.

Re: Components Obsoleting
Look right above the listing of available components in the Design screen. There is a check box.



apd1004 -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/16/2015 7:53:08 PM)

Has the mod changed the AI routine for explorer ships? I used to send non-automated explorer ships to explore a specific system and the ship would fly around the system until everything was revealed and then it would stop upon mission completion. Now it appears that they just fly to the system and stop without hitting all the planets/asteroids in the system. If I turn on automation, it seems to hit everything but then once it gets done with that system it moves on to the next system, which may not be the one I wanted it to go to next.



Osito -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/17/2015 6:41:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apd1004

Has the mod changed the AI routine for explorer ships? I used to send non-automated explorer ships to explore a specific system and the ship would fly around the system until everything was revealed and then it would stop upon mission completion. Now it appears that they just fly to the system and stop without hitting all the planets/asteroids in the system. If I turn on automation, it seems to hit everything but then once it gets done with that system it moves on to the next system, which may not be the one I wanted it to go to next.


I haven't knowingly changed anything to do with the explorers, and, if anything, I would expect any explorer routine to be dictated by the AI Improvement mod. Having said that, I'm not sure it's possible to change the AI in the way you mentioned. It might possibly have something to do with the low starting range of the explorer's resource profile sensor, but then again I wasn't aware of any such problem with version 1 of this mod, which had the same staring range. Don't know whether a recent patch has affected anything. I will see if I can replicate the issue next time I can play DW.

CyclopsSlayer, yes I know about the option to show only the most recent components; what I meant is that I wouldn't know how to mod the game in such a way as to make everything show up, rather than just the most recent stuff. So at the moment, I'm unsure what I might have changed to cause this behaviour.

It's interesting to hear your views on the pirates, because they are still starting off a lot slower than they do in vanilla, but I guess it takes the player much longer to catch up.

Osito



Icemania -> RE: Research Unleashed (6/19/2015 10:34:30 AM)

The AI Improvement Mod just changes how many Explorers are built. The Explorer algorithm itself is hard coded and not accessible.



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