RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (Full Version)

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HMSWarspite -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/1/2015 11:37:21 AM)

As it logically should be



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/1/2015 10:13:00 PM)

So I just realized something....

I wasn't playing to game the system, I just wanted to win. But in my hunt for VPs I have realized something fundamental about the design.

If I continue to do this and net 10+ Vps a turn, all I have to do is nab the 10 hexes in italy and n europe in order to negate the beachhead penalty....and I'll win because the EF box is off. With the EF box off, there is no incentive to fight because you know the Soviets will take berlin on May 1.

That's the case in our game. With the EF box ON, we already know the limitations of the system. So it actually may be in best order to have the EF box ON, but a house rule that the german can't pull from it...


Thoughts?



Q-Ball -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/1/2015 11:11:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

So I just realized something....

I wasn't playing to game the system, I just wanted to win. But in my hunt for VPs I have realized something fundamental about the design.

If I continue to do this and net 10+ Vps a turn, all I have to do is nab the 10 hexes in italy and n europe in order to negate the beachhead penalty....and I'll win because the EF box is off. With the EF box off, there is no incentive to fight because you know the Soviets will take berlin on May 1.

That's the case in our game. With the EF box ON, we already know the limitations of the system. So it actually may be in best order to have the EF box ON, but a house rule that the german can't pull from it...


Thoughts?


RE: The VPs, I think you are correct; if you can net 10 Vps a turn bombing, then you really just have to minimize losses and allow the Soviets to do the rest of the work in Europe. Iron Curtain ends at the English Channel, but hey, still a victory.

RE: You can't really play EF Box on-don't pull. With Box-off, the player will get certain reinforcements that you will not get if the Box is on, for example several SS units. If the German can't pull from the box, the only SS division you'll ever see is 12ss



Seminole -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 2:11:33 AM)

quote:

You can't really play EF Box on-don't pull. With Box-off, the player will get certain reinforcements that you will not get if the Box is on, for example several SS units. If the German can't pull from the box, the only SS division you'll ever see is 12ss


9th and 10th SS PzG Div start the 43 campaign on map.



Q-Ball -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 2:16:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

You can't really play EF Box on-don't pull. With Box-off, the player will get certain reinforcements that you will not get if the Box is on, for example several SS units. If the German can't pull from the box, the only SS division you'll ever see is 12ss


9th and 10th SS PzG Div start the 43 campaign on map.


Forgot about that; no 1ss/2ss though. Maybe that's still a fair trade. The other Panzer units kind of cancel out; you get 14th, 16th, 24th Panzer all-game instead of withdrawn, and you miss 2nd, 9th, 11th Panzer. PzG Feldhernalle is a bonus.



LiquidSky -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 3:43:50 AM)



Doesn't the 1st and 2nd SS Panzer's show up as reinforcements if the EF box is not on?



JocMeister -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 11:27:49 AM)

I saw the 1st and 2nd SS in my game vs Pelton. EF box OFF.



marion61 -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 12:04:24 PM)

EF box is okay, it just needs to have a higher cost for pulling out of it. Either make it where you lose VP's too, or higher admin cost to pull from it or both. With the EF box off it's really hard for the axis to keep both northern Europe and Italy covered. In one game I've taken Italy up to Naples, all of Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica with a corps, without a shot being fired yet. He's tied up and committed to containing my Brittany occupation, that he had no troops till recently to man the lines at Cassino. Now I can invade from Rome, to the Netherlands when the weather clears again in the spring.



whoofe -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 3:44:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The only industries that matter in this category are German Manpower, German HI, oil, fuel, and synthetic fuel. No other damage is used in these calculations.



does Austria count as "German" for these purposes? I had been assuming it did, but was not sure.




Seminole -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 3:58:51 PM)

quote:

does Austria count as "German" for these purposes? I had been assuming it did, but was not sure.


When you mouse hover over a hex it will show you nationality.
There is no 'Austria' after the 1938 Anschluss.



Joel Billings -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 5:04:35 PM)

I think you will be hard pressed to continue to score 10 VPS per turn as time goes on. I could be wrong though. It might be possible to get a draw using this strategy if you minimize your negative points, but I don't think you'll get a win.



Balou -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 5:44:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The current synthetic fuel situation for the game:



[image]local://upfiles/35705/BBB5E86A2A2745F3A52F92A8EC4C3E2F.jpg[/image]


quote:

carlkay58

Thus a site that has 50+% damage is out of production


sFuel figures in brackets are damage in % ? If so, then why is damage in some factories as high as it shows ? FOW ? Safety measure ?



marion61 -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:06:06 PM)

I was thinking this too, but atm he's doing 17 to 18 points a turn. After Jan. 44 it will be around 12 points a turn, and in Jul '44 it will be around 9. With the EF box off he could win it. It's turn 14 and he's already over 70 positive vp's and he's getting a lot of vp's not attacking me where I'm strong at, while he still has another 3 months of getting 18 just for his bombing.

He has 13 more turns at the present bombing modifier, and that's 234 points just for bombing. I've got almost no points from u-boats this game since he can send in 100 bombers to each sub city on turn one and I get no sub points for awhile till they repair. He hits them every four turns to keep them suppressed. It seems to me that having just 1% damage to take out the factories is a little low. The other big vp target is HI. He can strike 10 different places, (and I've noticed that my fighters in Germany have very low intercept rates, and I have them near every target he hits or they fly past them)and with a few bomb hits, gains all those bombing points. All he has to do to win, if he played that way was to invade France somewhere safe, get your 10 hexes up there, and wait till the Russians take Berlin May 1st.

It's easily winnable this way I believe.




NotOneStepBack -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:30:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I was thinking this too, but atm he's doing 17 to 18 points a turn. After Jan. 44 it will be around 12 points a turn, and in Jul '44 it will be around 9. With the EF box off he could win it. It's turn 14 and he's already over 70 positive vp's and he's getting a lot of vp's not attacking me where I'm strong at, while he still has another 3 months of getting 18 just for his bombing.

He has 13 more turns at the present bombing modifier, and that's 234 points just for bombing. I've got almost no points from u-boats this game since he can send in 100 bombers to each sub city on turn one and I get no sub points for awhile till they repair. He hits them every four turns to keep them suppressed. It seems to me that having just 1% damage to take out the factories is a little low. The other big vp target is HI. He can strike 10 different places, (and I've noticed that my fighters in Germany have very low intercept rates, and I have them near every target he hits or they fly past them)and with a few bomb hits, gains all those bombing points. All he has to do to win, if he played that way was to invade France somewhere safe, get your 10 hexes up there, and wait till the Russians take Berlin May 1st.

It's easily winnable this way I believe.




Agreed, and I want to play it out to see if it is possible. I'm nearing 20 bombing vps a turn now, even hitting smaller towns with HI that have no defenses. WA players! Hit HI!!



Balou -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:38:06 PM)

meklore61,
Basically your bombers go for targets with "high factory point counters" first (VP maths), eg a "30-factory-point" target with nearly 100% damage gives you nearly 3 VPs. True ? But isn't there a divisor ?



JocMeister -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:43:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61
(and I've noticed that my fighters in Germany have very low intercept rates, and I have them near every target he hits or they fly past them)and with a few bomb hits, gains all those bombing points.



You should ask Pelton how he do it. Over Hamburg and the Ruhr I was often hitting a wall of 600+ fighters on my way in and out. On a normal day over Hamburg the 8th would lose 150-250 planes.



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:45:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Basically your bombers go for targets with "high factory point counters" first (VP maths), eg a "30-factory-point" target with nearly 100% damage gives you nearly 3 VPs. True ? But isn't there a divisor ?


Yes, the divisor is the year factor which meklore brought up. That's why you just split your bombers into several groups of about 150 and hit multiple big targets and load them with big bombs. Try it yourself.

This tactic also has the benefit of being able to rest several AGs per turn.



Balou -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:48:26 PM)

Devs, more ADs please !



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 6:58:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Devs, more ADs please !


Put in leaders of the air hq that have high admin ratings for more ADs.



marion61 -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/2/2015 10:22:22 PM)

I have them set, and they were doing well, but now his air groups are so small I'm not sure the interceptors are seeing them. I'm not sure how that works, but ever since he started using small raids, my intercepts plummeted over Germany. The other thing this does is to make me spread out more, but I have several fighter groups near my largest HI now and I'm still covering uboats. He happens to still be using large strike groups in Italy, and my fighters are intercepting the crap out of them, so I'm starting to wonder if the smaller the strike the better.

I'm not saying intercepting is broken, but it is more difficult to spot 200 planes, than 2000, and my air groups have to cover a lot more territory and can't congregate around just the subs or the vweapons now.



carlkay58 -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/3/2015 12:32:29 AM)

Balou - yes the number in parenthesis is the % damage. They are that high in the occasional area because I have bombed them heavily over several turns and the oil and fuel/synth fuel factories repair slowly.

The divisor will get you in the end. The 43 divisor is 6. It changes to 9 for Jan - Jun 44, then 12 for the rest of 44. In 1945 the divisor is 15. That takes a big chunk out of the VPs after a while.

Also be aware that suppressing the UBoats is fairly easy in 1943 but then it switches over to the VWeapons in 1944 and those are much harder to suppress. After the French invasion, the VWeapon point loss doubles. Between the VWeapon VP loss and the larger divisor the Bombing campaign has real problems generating positive VPs after Jan 44.



RedLancer -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/3/2015 6:46:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Devs, more ADs please !


You can already do this yourself. You can have a maximum of 23 Air HQs in the game (as that is the limit on space in the right hand bar). Adding Groups in the Editor is really easy - just create a XXX Air HQ (e.g. No. 1 Group RAF) with a HHQ of Bomber Command. That gives you more ADs. With the cap on Air HQs the challenge for a scenario designer is which to include and which to leave out.



Smirfy -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/3/2015 2:32:43 PM)

As an aside I just read a fairly uninteresting paper whose sole point of interest was the fact that 12 of the "Memphis Belle's" missions were against the UBoat pens at St Nazaire, Brest and Lorient.. The numerous statistics of the bombing raids would be too numerous and dull to repeat. Perhaps there is grounds for adding a few more uboat targets?



decourcy2 -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/3/2015 4:56:26 PM)

Yeah, but we would never bomb the pens as post war research showed that the American 500lb bomb was incapable of penetrating the concrete! BTR had them on board but they were coded to be hard to damage.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/3/2015 5:52:51 PM)

The 500lber was incapable?! A 12000lb Tallboy was incapable of penetrating the concrete! Mind you they did lay waste to the surroundings with their bombing...

Also, the Allies had pretty much given up on conventional bombing of French pens by the start of the game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_pen). Tallboys and other specials only after early 1943...



Smirfy -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/3/2015 6:03:02 PM)

quote:

we would never bomb the pens as post war research showed that the American 500lb bomb was incapable of penetrating the concrete! BTR had them on board but they were coded to be hard to damage.



I know *we* would not but the Allies did till they were blue in the face. One of the complaints I have heard is the current U-Boat target set telegraphs air missions. If the anti Uboat air campaign which was more political than practical as the wasted effort against the pens suggest perhaps raids against them (if they existed in game) should have a nominal vp point value to represent the percieved political directive. In that way one of the complaints can be obviated and it keeps bombers away from other targets and does no damage except possibly to the port which incidently helps disquise the invaision (which seems fair). Incidently minelaying was part of the anti UBoat campaign so if you want to vary the mission subset for U-Boats (which also would help disguise the invaision) the amount of Bombers you stick on Naval interdiction might count in some way. The end result is you could probably up the value of the actual U Boat yards to encourage higher risk raids.



Smirfy -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/8/2015 12:53:25 PM)

By coincedence I'm reading Bomber offensive by the man himself and he stated he believed that bombing certain UBoat targets was pointless, argued against it and successfully did a deal with the Admiralty for laying 1000 mines a month instead. Minelaying taking up 14.5% of Bomber commands sorties in 43. He appears to have been pretty shrewd and realiased OTU's and Heavy conversion units could do alot of the work but realiased any night the weather was too poor for operations over Germany he could simply mine off the coast of Occupied Europe. So there is a precedent for Naval Interdiction being used in the strategic offensive



LiquidSky -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/11/2015 6:49:02 AM)



I had a thought about bombing different factories. One reason why an effect may not be 'felt' when bombing say AFV or aircraft factories is a large percentage of the built products goes to the east.

Say 25% ( I don't know the actual percentage) of AFV production goes to the west. I have to bomb 4 points of factories to stop 1 AFV from making it to the west. With the EF box off, that essentially means a free 'buffer' of 3 afv's for every 1 that matters.

And a lot of those units aren't even in combat for half the game....allowing a pool to build up. Which makes it seem like no real damage is occurring, when in fact, you may pay a large dividend in 1944.

And that is probably frustrating to the 'I want it all and I want it now" crowd.

Bombing HI and MAN gives instant gratification. I can see the next turn that my vp's have risen. I'm not going to find out 20 turns later that I wasted 20 weeks of missions.

In my game with DicedT the EF box is on. Which makes me wonder if I can help win the game faster, by helping the Russians get to Berlin faster, by bombing equipment. Fuel probably doesn't matter in the EF box...Supplies probably do...so maybe bombing HI has more of a point.



JocMeister -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/11/2015 7:04:10 AM)

But helping the war effort doesn´t necessarily mean winning the game. The WAs are starved for positive VPs already and giving up one of the biggest sources may be giving away any chance of actually winning the game. It might help you win the war...but with the VP system we are stuck with I think you are better off playing the VP system and completely disregarding what happens in the "war". At least if you play MP.

Just a few thoughts. [:)]



Q-Ball -> RE: Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry (3/11/2015 12:38:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
In my game with DicedT the EF box is on. Which makes me wonder if I can help win the game faster, by helping the Russians get to Berlin faster, by bombing equipment.


IMO, with EF Box on, bombing AFVs is the most effective thing you can do. I wanted to try it in my game vs. Smokingdave, but I think it's so effective I didn't want to "break" our game to make a point.

There are only 8 cities that contain all PzIV, Panther, and StugIII production. Those are the 3 models that are the most important. You can add the Jagdpanzer 38(t) to that later; it's built in just one city. Can the Allies keep 8 cities in rubble? I think you can.

I would like to see somebody try it to prove the point. It will take awhile to have an impact as you say, but imagine what the Wehrmacht would look like with no Panzer IV, Panther, or Stugs.

I predict someone will try this, and then there will be Houserules against AFV bombing.....



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