Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 7:55:35 PM)

I wonder if UNIT bombing is too powerful, once you have the settings right as Allies. This turn was a typical result; weather was bad, so I didn't fly all my planes, and I it's a bit of a pause in Italy, but I still destroyed 270 Tanks via Unit bombing with the Tactical Air in Italy. With max effort and more aircraft, I'm sure I could do more.

I am playing vs. Mekore as Germany, and over 70% of my total losses are from aircraft, not combat. 300-400 tanks is pretty typical turn.

Personally, I wonder why more players don't just unit bomb every Panzer unit they can, bomb the Panther and Panzer IV factories, and call it a war. I think if you make de-tanking the Wehrmacht a priority, you can do it by fall of 1944.

At some point, I think this is going to need to be toned-down. I don't think WA is overpowered as a whole, but this is something that to me doesn't feel right. What do you guys think?



[image]local://upfiles/6931/6B83F8E18C564A66A500F7A29BB24159.jpg[/image]



Seminole -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 8:31:48 PM)

I assume those were mainly flak losses?

Carpet bombing with Strategic Air Force at 9000ft? I think they flew at 11,500 for the initial waves in Op. Cobra, and thereby created a moonscape for Bradley.

I wondered from the beginning how much the Strategic Bombing Campaign VPs were about trying to minimize the WA doing things like this.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 8:34:55 PM)

Um... 4 days of 600 bombers a day... moonscape probably describes it!



Q-Ball -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 8:48:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I assume those were mainly flak losses?

Carpet bombing with Strategic Air Force at 9000ft? I think they flew at 11,500 for the initial waves in Op. Cobra, and thereby created a moonscape for Bradley.

I wondered from the beginning how much the Strategic Bombing Campaign VPs were about trying to minimize the WA doing things like this.


This isn't Carpet bombing, just FB bombing; some rocket-equipped Hurris and Typhoon, but mostly P-39, P-40, and P-47 armed with 500 lb bombs. Yes, nearly all losses are FLAK for sure.

Flak losses are heavy with this tactic, but the plentiful FB types like P-39 and P-40 are still pretty effective, so losses aren't a big deal

I had way too many escorts, my results would have been better if I had switched many of them to FB-B from FB-F

These results are attainable with any FB in the Allied inventory



Balou -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 9:02:34 PM)

The losses are a temporary trade-off I am willing to accept. Unit bombing was decisive to unlock a rather uncomfortable position after invading France. Especially Tiffies + rockets blew armor to pieces and the door open, whether "fortified" or not.



Flaviusx -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 9:22:22 PM)

Is detanking the Wehrmacht by fall of 1944 so unrealistic? That's more or less what happened leaving aside the reserves built up for the Bulge, and that was the last gasp.



Q-Ball -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 9:40:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Is detanking the Wehrmacht by fall of 1944 so unrealistic? That's more or less what happened leaving aside the reserves built up for the Bulge, and that was the last gasp.


To this extent, I think it's unrealistic. If you focus on it, you can have the last tank roll off the assembly lines in summer of 1944. That gives you about 6-8 turns to clear-out the on-map inventory, assuming the Wehrmacht has about 12 panzer divisions, and you kill 300 a turn.

If I was bombing the Reich, I would ignore the heavy stuff, and just bomb Panther, Panzer IV, and StugIII/IV. You need to hit a total of 8 cities to get all of those; that's not alot, not when you have to bomb almost that many for VWeps and UBoats. And we're talking about ALL tank and Assault gun production...all of it

Maybe I'll try it, see if it works



marion61 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/2/2015 10:12:43 PM)

I've sustained that for two months, but the cost has been heavy to my FB's. I'm resting them at higher moral now that your withdrawing. Being that close to England, I set my strikes per day high, and they'll fly as many sorties as possible. Also I wasn't having to carry gas tanks on my aircraft, so I was dropping lots of bombs, and even the fighter escorts had bombs or rockets. I've even disbanded a few air groups of FB's just to keep my pool good, and to get more Canadian Pilots into the pool.




carlkay58 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 12:24:58 AM)

That level of bombing is not sustainable. It is a high cost tactic, especially if the Axis player has attached some decent AA SUs.

I have not really tried to emphasize either aircraft or AFV strategic bombing as of yet. I have done some fighter factory bombing against Pelton, but I really don't know if it did any good or not. Its on my list of things to look at though.



Q-Ball -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 12:25:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I've sustained that for two months, but the cost has been heavy to my FB's. I'm resting them at higher moral now that your withdrawing. Being that close to England, I set my strikes per day high, and they'll fly as many sorties as possible. Also I wasn't having to carry gas tanks on my aircraft, so I was dropping lots of bombs, and even the fighter escorts had bombs or rockets. I've even disbanded a few air groups of FB's just to keep my pool good, and to get more Canadian Pilots into the pool.




We'll see if it's sustainable, but the other premise.....bombing all the AFV plants....has merit I think. There are only 2 Panzer IV factories, for example; 2 bombing runs, and that model is out of production. That's powerful. Couple that with tank hunting, even on a periodic basis, and that's a powerful combination.....I think that can cause a Wehrmacht collapse early.



carlkay58 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 12:41:31 AM)

My opinion is that the Allied players (myself included) have blinders on while doing the strategic air war. We concentrate on the four industries that give us VPs and the two that subtract VPs and forget about the others.

My philosophy has been that Bombing VPs are meant to offset the UBoat and VWeapon VP losses while city VPs should offset the casualty VP losses. It does not always work that way.

My game with Pelton has been too cautious on the ground game for many reasons - but the VP losses are only a minor one. My major concern is the British manpower pool. I have hit rock bottom on the British Manpower pool before D-Day in several games due to overly aggressive attacking in Italy. So I am trying to figure what a good balance is.

I have tried hitting the Axis Manpower sites heavily for the VPs and reduce the German manpower but manpower industries repair too quickly for it to be effective. I can't hit enough of them heavily enough to keep the damage high enough to matter for both VP and reducing the manpower. I have not really tried going after HI although it has been on my list for quite some time.



Smirfy -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 7:55:48 AM)

Has anyone ever not fought to the death in the invaision front? The way I see it if you dont repulse them in a couple of turns your going to attrite away if you hang in there. That seems entirely logical and correct if anything Allied air pays too high a price for the priveledge. Its your choice, the Siegfried line and some bad terrain is behind you plenty of ports to garrison and plenty of useless ground to surrender. Has anyone ever tried that? And, Winter is coming.



Smirfy -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 8:02:57 AM)


With regards Strategic bombers against ground units I hope in the future a module is released that improves the political aspect and gives the commander at SHEAF a high political cost from a limited pool for switching them from the strategic offensive to ground support. Presently I could only suggest a VP penalty for doing so which would not be entirely accurate but would at least give the decision balance.



Denniss -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 8:45:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
If I was bombing the Reich, I would ignore the heavy stuff, and just bomb Panther, Panzer IV, and StugIII/IV. You need to hit a total of 8 cities to get all of those; that's not alot, not when you have to bomb almost that many for VWeps and UBoats. And we're talking about ALL tank and Assault gun production...all of it
That's actually a major problem in WitW - too easy to kill important Axis production, these tank/air factories are usually just assembly shops which were easily repaired or dispersed to continue production.



Peltonx -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 10:52:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
If I was bombing the Reich, I would ignore the heavy stuff, and just bomb Panther, Panzer IV, and StugIII/IV. You need to hit a total of 8 cities to get all of those; that's not alot, not when you have to bomb almost that many for VWeps and UBoats. And we're talking about ALL tank and Assault gun production...all of it
That's actually a major problem in WitW - too easy to kill important Axis production, these tank/air factories are usually just assembly shops which were easily repaired or dispersed to continue production.



1. German production never dropped off until the factorys were over run so yes the bombing of factory is Middle Earth right now.
2. As with WitE divisions strength is mostly based on infantry squads not AFV's so there are work arounds with SU's ect ect.

Question how much does terrain effect your bombing or is it a non-factor? Both allies an axis bombing in clear terrain was very good, but any woods or city and it was about usless.

Terrain should have a major effect and fort lvl, my guess is they have non which is completely unhistorical



RedLancer -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 11:52:20 AM)

There is a terrain modifier.



marion61 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 12:06:59 PM)

We're actually discussing two different things here. In reference to unit bombing, I'm not sure if it's too powerful, and I normally only use my strategic bombers for getting ashore, staying ashore, then they go back to bombing the Reich, unless there's an emergency at the front they need to assist with.

Until I hit France, my strategic bombers have done nothing but bomb, and they took two months off to help in Calais, and now they are back to hitting strategic targets. They paid the toll for being used that way as I had to rest them a couple of turns before they could get back up in numbers, and the price has also been my British manpower is very low atm since I was keeping pilots in those air groups. On top of that, you can't afford to have the strategic bombers off bombing units a whole lot. All those vweapon and vweapon launch vp's pile up until you over run the sites if your not bombing the Reich.

With all the above in mind, I can task 8th and Bomber Command to hit the Reich, and to take out railyards and ports, and hit some ground troops each turn. There is nothing unrealistic about that, that's why there are multiple AD's in every AF. Heavy bombers have been used tactically since WW I, so why would you want to penalize them for doing what they are supposed to? Dropping bombs and killing the enemy.

Using all of the bombers for hitting ground units every turn would be a very cheesy move. That would be lazy or incompetent gameplay, being assisted by bombers to get a win.

I'm not sure if the actual numbers being casualties is correct, but I can tell you from personal experience what one strategic bomber, with a few dumb bombs can do to a formation with just one run. Granted, they had modern avionics, but dumb bombs are dumb, and they don't get smarter as they fall, and pilot quality plays a large part in how effective they can be.

One thing I think that might discourage long term use of all strategic bombers for units is to potentially cause friendly casualties from bombing so close to your own troops. This still happens today, even with modern avionics. I'm not sure if they could even be coded in, but having a small chance to hit your own troops instead of axis troops would give pause before using them.




Smirfy -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 12:15:08 PM)

The strategic bomber offensive did not really start operating against tank plants specifically until August 44 the estimates are they reduced tank production by 1/4 during August and September 44 . After that it was the loss of French and Belgium steel production plus the dislocation of the Ruhr by Bomber command that brought steel production to into the equation with regards tank output.

Oscar Henschel, leading German industrialist, sole builder of Tiger Tanks: "Bombing caused our production figures to drop considerably. The Henschel factories produced only 42 Tiger Tanks (Tiger Royal) in February 1945 instead of the 120 they had been ordered to build.

"Allied attacks of September 1944 were the most effective, I believe. If the bombers had kept up their attacks on my plants for two or three successive days, they would have been put out of commission for months."



decourcy2 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 4:54:04 PM)

That was one thing i was hoping you guy's would borrow from BTR; the dispersion of German industry. There was a ton of work done on where things moved to, etc that would have been invaluable for this game.

I am unsure about HB's attacking troops but i would suggest the FB's are too effective. There was a British post combat battlefield evaluation group that operated across France in '44 that looked at things like what actually killed German tanks and they found that the FB pilots were exaggerating massively. What they did find is that the German supply carrying trucks and wagons were taking heavy casualties from FB's.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 5:57:13 PM)

That's what I was going to say... the effectiveness in RL is stranded/dislocated tank units not dead tanks...



HMSWarspite -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 6:01:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


1. German production never dropped off until the factorys were over run so yes the bombing of factory is Middle Earth right now.



Not found a weakness in your super optimised game play have we? And you might find references to historical books and data rather more effective in making your case than allusions to Hobbits and Dwarves...

[;)] (I think)



Seminole -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/3/2015 7:40:50 PM)

quote:

This isn't Carpet bombing, just FB bombing; some rocket-equipped Hurris and Typhoon, but mostly P-39, P-40, and P-47 armed with 500 lb bombs. Yes, nearly all losses are FLAK for sure.
Flak losses are heavy with this tactic, but the plentiful FB types like P-39 and P-40 are still pretty effective, so losses aren't a big deal

I had way too many escorts, my results would have been better if I had switched many of them to FB-B from FB-F
These results are attainable with any FB in the Allied inventory
< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/2/2015 4:51:57 PM >)


Did you come in 9000 ft to avoid flak from neighbors?
Bad assumption on my part about the LBs, forgot it groups them together when they're in FB mode.
I take from your comments you are setting load out?

Since I've only played the battleground Italy scenario as WA, are those numbers because of how many groups you have available at this point, or have you maxed your doctrine settings to increase participation as well?



bradcue -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 2:09:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

This isn't Carpet bombing, just FB bombing; some rocket-equipped Hurris and Typhoon, but mostly P-39, P-40, and P-47 armed with 500 lb bombs. Yes, nearly all losses are FLAK for sure.
Flak losses are heavy with this tactic, but the plentiful FB types like P-39 and P-40 are still pretty effective, so losses aren't a big deal

I had way too many escorts, my results would have been better if I had switched many of them to FB-B from FB-F
These results are attainable with any FB in the Allied inventory
< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/2/2015 4:51:57 PM >)


Did you come in 9000 ft to avoid flak from neighbors?
Bad assumption on my part about the LBs, forgot it groups them together when they're in FB mode.
I take from your comments you are setting load out?

Since I've only played the battleground Italy scenario as WA, are those numbers because of how many groups you have available at this point, or have you maxed your doctrine settings to increase participation as well?


I came in at 9000 ft. because I observed Meklore using that altitude, and getting good results. I suppose it limits flak losses from Heavy flak, but still alot are lost to light flak.

I am setting load-out; Rockets, if available, mostly a combination of 500LB bombs and gas tanks

I did transfer units from England, so I have a decent concentration of FBs in Tactical Air Force. I'll check next time I have turn, but around 2500 total IIRC. That includes both FB-F and FB, but I've been using some fighter-trained as bomber as well.

I have frequency set to AUTO; I haven't quite figured out that particular setting, a couple times when I monkeyed with it, I had problems, so I'm leaving it alone for now



Q-Ball -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 2:12:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradcue


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

This isn't Carpet bombing, just FB bombing; some rocket-equipped Hurris and Typhoon, but mostly P-39, P-40, and P-47 armed with 500 lb bombs. Yes, nearly all losses are FLAK for sure.
Flak losses are heavy with this tactic, but the plentiful FB types like P-39 and P-40 are still pretty effective, so losses aren't a big deal

I had way too many escorts, my results would have been better if I had switched many of them to FB-B from FB-F
These results are attainable with any FB in the Allied inventory
< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 3/2/2015 4:51:57 PM >)


Did you come in 9000 ft to avoid flak from neighbors?
Bad assumption on my part about the LBs, forgot it groups them together when they're in FB mode.
I take from your comments you are setting load out?

Since I've only played the battleground Italy scenario as WA, are those numbers because of how many groups you have available at this point, or have you maxed your doctrine settings to increase participation as well?


I came in at 9000 ft. because I observed Meklore using that altitude, and getting good results. I suppose it limits flak losses from Heavy flak, but still alot are lost to light flak.

I am setting load-out; Rockets, if available, mostly a combination of 500LB bombs and gas tanks

I did transfer units from England, so I have a decent concentration of FBs in Tactical Air Force. I'll check next time I have turn, but around 2500 total IIRC. That includes both FB-F and FB, but I've been using some fighter-trained as bomber as well.

I have frequency set to AUTO; I haven't quite figured out that particular setting, a couple times when I monkeyed with it, I had problems, so I'm leaving it alone for now


Sorry, this was me. I used a log-in that my games were registered under without noticing; I guess I can't troll anyone with that log-in now![:D]



Seminole -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 2:49:59 PM)

quote:

I came in at 9000 ft. because I observed Meklore using that altitude, and getting good results. I suppose it limits flak losses from Heavy flak, but still alot are lost to light flak.


Would the altitude have any impact on FB attacks? I think I read somewhere (on the forum, not in the manual) that dive bombers drop down to 1000 ft for their attacks. Not sure what the attack profile is for rocket or bomb equipped FBs...

I checked the manual on the altitude thing:

quote:

All enemy units that are flown over during an air mission
will attempt to engage the air group units with their antiaircraft
ground elements and any anti-aircraft support
units. AA units in cities/airfields will fire at aircraft flying
in adjacent hexes if they are 15000 feet or higher, while
units will fire into adjacent hexes if the enemy aircraft
is 10000 feet or higher. Fire at adjacent hexes has much
less effect than fire at aircraft flying directly overhead.
For all air missions AA units in the target hex are much
more effective. AA units attached directly to cities or
airfields (including flak intrinsic to the airfield unit) are
more effective, as are self-propelled flak units. These
are cumulative benefits, so a self-propelled flak unit in a
city that is in the target hex will receive benefits from all
three conditions.


Looks like I will be loading up my schnelle eingreiftruppe with lots of AA SUs...

quote:

I am setting load-out; Rockets, if available, mostly a combination of 500LB bombs and gas tanks
I did transfer units from England, so I have a decent concentration of FBs in Tactical Air Force. I'll check next time I have turn, but around 2500 total IIRC. That includes both FB-F and FB, but I've been using some fighter-trained as bomber as well.
I have frequency set to AUTO; I haven't quite figured out that particular setting, a couple times when I monkeyed with it, I had problems, so I'm leaving it alone for now


The setting you're talking about is 'missions per day' setting in the Air Directive, right?
What I'm wondering about is the 'Mission Percentage' in the Air Doctrine settings. Do you up that to get 300+ showing up, or is it just that you've thrown so many groups into the AD that that many planes show up.



Q-Ball -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 2:54:42 PM)

The number of planes is set to AUTO, which I beleive is 100. The results are from having quite a few aircraft in that directive, but that's not the only one I am running

Vs. Meklore, I have an AA unit attached to every Mobile division, and sometimes 2. The Germans get quite a few Flak SUs anyway, and that's what I do with them. Meklore has killed alot of my guys, though he does have very high flak losses, with over 30,000 Allied planes shot down through July of 1944. Embedding flak doesn't stop it, it only extracts a price.....



marion61 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 3:20:49 PM)

This is how I assign strike numbers. 1st if it's recon, and I'm setting it over a large area I will set it to 99. This will create as many recon flights as possible, and I leave the requested numbers on auto. Strat Recon I leave on auto.

For a bomb city, most of the time I set the area to 0, strikes at 1, I count how many bombers and escorts I have total, and depending on how many AD's I have that turn, I divide the number of available by the number of AD's I have to get my requested number. Example: I have 1500 bombers and 200 fighters in Bomber Command. I set my strike number to 1 for each AD, and if I have 5 AD's, that would be 300 bombers and 40 fighters requested. Set them for however many days you want. There are exceptions to this, but generally this is how I do it.

For ground attack it depends. If I'm out to hit units, I will set the area to 1 or 2, see how many hexes have units in them (I like 1 hex strikes cause if there's a unit in every hex, that's 7 strikes), then set your strike number to the number of units you want to try and hit in the area. I don't normally set an actual requested number for this, but I do sometimes, especially if I have a lot of planes.

Ground Support and Naval I set my strikes to 99, to maximize my patrols over the area. I'm not sure if you've noticed this or not, but when you fly to your naval AD, your planes are creating a 2-4 hex wide path as they fly to the target. If you have it fly by other areas that need some naval while getting to their patrol, they can create additional naval interdiction on their route. I like to fly them near ports I want cut off by just adjusting their path. Multi-tasking!



Smirfy -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 4:18:35 PM)

Which is the the best for rockets equipped planes? Support, Interdiction or Unit attacks?. One perception I have is when messing about with various settings I took my P40's off Ground Support and they performed better in the Unit Attack mode. Is that not essentially the same thing?



Seminole -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 4:43:20 PM)

quote:

This is how I assign strike numbers. 1st if it's recon, and I'm setting it over a large area I will set it to 99. This will create as many recon flights as possible, and I leave the requested numbers on auto. Strat Recon I leave on auto.


I think that runs the risk of 'burning up' your allotted flight miles for the week before the week is through, doesn't it (moreso I would expect with ground attack than recon, but under the same principle)?
I've set the intensity to 'high' and seen ADs run out of aircraft late in the week (e.g. bomb days 1-5, but not on day 6 or 7).

quote:

Ground Support and Naval I set my strikes to 99, to maximize my patrols over the area. I'm not sure if you've noticed this or not, but when you fly to your naval AD, your planes are creating a 2-4 hex wide path as they fly to the target. If you have it fly by other areas that need some naval while getting to their patrol, they can create additional naval interdiction on their route. I like to fly them near ports I want cut off by just adjusting their path. Multi-tasking!


Yes, I actually mentioned in my AAR. On turn 2 one hex on my B-25 Naval Patrol route was contested from a 3 to a 2, so the path to the patrol area over Messina failed to also block out Palermo that turn.

What I've seen is it accumulates over the route from the staging base to the target, so I will setup my route/staging base accordingly.
I have not see it accumulate in the adjacent hexes on the path, but I bet you could put two ADs on the same path to good effect.

[image]http://i.imgur.com/YIupi39.jpg[/image]



marion61 -> RE: Unit Bombing--Too Powerful? (3/4/2015 4:48:40 PM)

It doesn't burn my miles up. If it's a deep strike they don't go but every other day. If it's close like the Ruhr, then I send them 5 days. Plus if I have 1500 ac, and I make 3 AD's, and request 500 for each AD for those 5 days, you won't run out of mileage. The planes are only being used once a day, and every other day if it's a deep strike. You don't need 7 days over a target to do what needs be done, so my bombers only fly 4 or 5 days out of every week.



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