RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (Full Version)

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JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 5:55:12 AM)
Oh, Meklore asked if I wanted to try the Axis side against him. WitW sadly suffers a bad case of "not much fun" though so I´m not sure I´d want to commit to another game. I´ll think about it over the weekend. Although this game is a lot more tense and action packed then my game with Pelton it still can´t hook me even the slightest. I´m still convinced no one besides the BETA testers will play this game in 6 months. As a matter of fact that already seems be the case...with a few exceptions like yours truly... [;)] As I said to Meklore they devs should be all over the game trying to turn the ship around. Yet they are strikingly absent. They only thing I keep hearing is "we need more data from finished games". Yet they fail to realize that no one plays it to the end because its fundamentally broken or simply not fun/interesting enough. I´ll keep trying to like this game though. But its a struggle. Even the one part I loved (the BtR aspect) turns out to be a poor and flat design. Update coming in a couple of hours. Some good news on Sardinia.

schascha -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 8:22:37 AM)
Hi Joc Thx for your AARs, they're very pleasant to read[&o][&o] You're referring to NOSP advices for the air bombing where can I find them???

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 8:37:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: schascha Hi Joc Thx for your AARs, they're very pleasant to read[&o][&o] You're referring to NOSP advices for the air bombing where can I find them??? Thank you! [:)] Here is a link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3810952

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 8:54:07 AM)
Aaah, the feeling when you spent an hour with the turn....and then get "upload failure" followed by a CTD....

schascha -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 8:55:17 AM)
thx for the link an very interesting one[&o]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 9:15:50 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ Turn 8. ______________________________________________________________________________ Finally some breathing room on Sardinia... ------------------------ Northern Europe ------------------------ Not much happening besides the usual bombings. Just keep hitting that HI.... ------------------------ The Med ------------------------ Meklore is proving a seriously tough nut to crack even on the Allied doorstep. He knows a tremendous amount about the game and knows exactly how to use the engine to get the most out of it. Its proving a good lesson for me as he is freely sharing everything he knows with me via mail. Its good because I learn a lot but its also sad because its really exposing how weak and flat the game is. On Sardinia we finally wrestle enough Naval interdiction to get some supply flowing. All it took was the entire Strategic, Tactical, Coastal Command. Oh, and around 1000 planes transferred from the British Isles including all mediums and most patrols...[8\|] No luck on getting any planes up in the air though as Meklore pummeled the AFs destroying some Spits and Cobras on the ground. I do manage to expand the landings a bit. Meklore has been attacking my troops relentlessly to burn their supply. Although he has taking heavy losses he doesn´t need to care about that. Italians will surrender eventually anyway and he doesn´t lose VPs. So its a win win for him. Well played! On Sicily its the same story as before. I´m slowly expanding but I can soon start pulling units out and start prepping for the next invasion I think. Supply should catch up in a turn or two. Meklore keeps attacking my units each turn. ------------------------ VPs ------------------------ Currently at -36. I´m getting good bombing VPs but the gain is eaten up by the ground losses. Most of them caused by Axis ground attacks and bombings. I would like to think this forward defense will damage Axis abilities in the long run but somehow I doubt it will.... [image]local://upfiles/32406/B6EED3384624417089B96966175CD6FC.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 9:18:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: schascha thx for the link an very interesting one[&o] I´m currently getting around 13 VPs from bombing and -2 from U-boats. So I´m netting 11 VPs per turn. Not as good as NOSB yet but I´ll get there. [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 11:31:04 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ VP Screen ______________________________________________________________________________ [image]local://upfiles/32406/5B446F04A5F84B1DAB7DA9A4972DFFAA.jpg[/image]

Smirfy -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 1:53:15 PM)
Did you put any additional Flak on your airbases to protect them?

Seminole -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 2:18:08 PM)
quote: On Sardinia we finally wrestle enough Naval interdiction to get some supply flowing. All it took was the entire Strategic, Tactical, Coastal Command. Oh, and around 1000 planes transferred from the British Isles including all mediums and most patrols... This might be a thing like the strategic bombing where you're still getting a handle on how best to use your assets. Early on, or as long as the LW level bomber fleet is active, whoever has the upper hand on this part of the game seems to win irrespective of the rest. quote: No luck on getting any planes up in the air though as Meklore pummeled the AFs destroying some Spits and Cobras on the ground. The key here is the 'Air Support' level in your air support level in your air bases. Those are the guys that actually keep the planes ready each turn. You can have all the supplies in the world, but if those guys aren't getting there your planes will not get repaired and will go into 'reserve' status. The problem is those guys come as replacements, so if your supply line is broken you don't get any that turn. This means if you pour fighters into a landing base (that starts 50% damaged) and has none or next to no 'Air Support' in its TOE your fighters are sitting ducks. This air support build up is the thing I've had the most trouble with, and I think part of the problem I'm having is the quirks in how the supply/logistics phases run. What I try to do: First turn after invasion see how much the TOE was fleshed out from the amphib supplies. Set TOE to 55 (this is from a tip in the manual that suggests doing this instead of AUTO for the initial build up) Set supply priority at air base to 4 for all invasion air bases. Make sure no other WA air bases have a supply level above 2. This should give the invasion air bases dibs on the first few rounds of supplies/replacements. Fly in at least 1 squadron (12) of Spitfires. If the airbase got some Air Support units from the initial amphib build I might send another squadron or two, but the main thing is to create a 'need' in the eyes of the logistics phase for Air Support at this base. The 55 TOE setting should do that, but I'm not sure if that overrides perceived need by the logistics engine, so I like to get both in my favor without risking a bunch of air frames. Next turn I check and see what my Air Support numbers look like in the air base TOE. If a base didn't get any, but some others did I set the ones who did to supply priority 3. I add more aircraft if the Air Support is sufficient - still use Spitfire squadrons here because they offer small increments of need. When the Air Support TOE is getting close to 55 I change it to AUTO and fill up the base with air frames. This whole process can take a few weeks, and I've had some frustrating 'WTF' moments. You move tons and tons of supplies, thousands and thousands of men, hundreds and hundreds of planes, and find out somebody forgot to bring the wrench monkeys... Which reminds me, remember to bring engineers in your HQ supporting the invasion and get them ashore to fix the air base damage ASAP. quote: I do manage to expand the landings a bit. Meklore has been attacking my troops relentlessly to burn their supply. Although he has taking heavy losses he doesn´t need to care about that. Italians will surrender eventually anyway and he doesn´t lose VPs. So its a win win for him. Well played! This is part of why I think an early entry into Sardinia is a bad move. You've chosen to fight units that might have been fighting for you, and Meklore gets no credit for that part of it. He's making the most of your gift really. quote: On Sicily its the same story as before. I´m slowly expanding but I can soon start pulling units out and start prepping for the next invasion I think. Supply should catch up in a turn or two. Meklore keeps attacking my units each turn. If the supply soft factor is what you have turned on your supply situation looks good. The NE tip of Sicily is too crowded for all the units you have on the island now, that's why I was trying to tell you that you could break down a division to prep in Sciacca and Trapani while you fixed those ports and pulled your temp ports.

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 2:38:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole This might be a thing like the strategic bombing where you're still getting a handle on how best to use your assets. Early on, or as long as the LW level bomber fleet is active, whoever has the upper hand on this part of the game seems to win irrespective of the rest. Indeed. I should have done this from the beginning. But I had hoped with the new patch, small number of Axis planes flying interdiction and the long distance they were flying I wouldn´t have to use 2000 planes for me to get supply flowing. quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole The key here is the 'Air Support' level in your air support level in your air bases. Those are the guys that actually keep the planes ready each turn. You can have all the supplies in the world, but if those guys aren't getting there your planes will not get repaired and will go into 'reserve' status. The problem is those guys come as replacements, so if your supply line is broken you don't get any that turn. This means if you pour fighters into a landing base (that starts 50% damaged) and has none or next to no 'Air Support' in its TOE your fighters are sitting ducks. This air support build up is the thing I've had the most trouble with, and I think part of the problem I'm having is the quirks in how the supply/logistics phases run. What I try to do: First turn after invasion see how much the TOE was fleshed out from the amphib supplies. Set TOE to 55 (this is from a tip in the manual that suggests doing this instead of AUTO for the initial build up) Set supply priority at air base to 4 for all invasion air bases. Make sure no other WA air bases have a supply level above 2. This should give the invasion air bases dibs on the first few rounds of supplies/replacements. Fly in at least 1 squadron (12) of Spitfires. If the airbase got some Air Support units from the initial amphib build I might send another squadron or two, but the main thing is to create a 'need' in the eyes of the logistics phase for Air Support at this base. The 55 TOE setting should do that, but I'm not sure if that overrides perceived need by the logistics engine, so I like to get both in my favor without risking a bunch of air frames. Next turn I check and see what my Air Support numbers look like in the air base TOE. If a base didn't get any, but some others did I set the ones who did to supply priority 3. I add more aircraft if the Air Support is sufficient - still use Spitfire squadrons here because they offer small increments of need. When the Air Support TOE is getting close to 55 I change it to AUTO and fill up the base with air frames. This whole process can take a few weeks, and I've had some frustrating 'WTF' moments. You move tons and tons of supplies, thousands and thousands of men, hundreds and hundreds of planes, and find out somebody forgot to bring the wrench monkeys... Which reminds me, remember to bring engineers in your HQ supporting the invasion and get them ashore to fix the air base damage ASAP. That is in fact exactly what I did. But from Meklores advice I set the TOE to 100 instead off 55. Flew in 16x2 Fighters to each base on the 2nd turn but right after that Meklore closed the beaches and the supply ran out. The same turn I managed to open the beaches he smashed the AFs. Quite nicely done actually! [X(] I really think the mechanics behind the Air Bases should be looked at. You need to be able to stack up supply in preparation of moving AC there. quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole This is part of why I think an early entry into Sardinia is a bad move. You've chosen to fight units that might have been fighting for you, and Meklore gets no credit for that part of it. He's making the most of your gift really. On Sicily its the same story as before. I´m slowly expanding but I can soon start pulling units out and start prepping for the next invasion I think. Supply should catch up in a turn or two. Meklore keeps attacking my units each turn. Yes, in hindsight going for Sardinia wasn´t a good move. But given how the game looks I´m not sure going somewhere else would have been much better. quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole If the supply soft factor is what you have turned on your supply situation looks good. The NE tip of Sicily is too crowded for all the units you have on the island now, that's why I was trying to tell you that you could break down a division to prep in Sciacca and Trapani while you fixed those ports and pulled your temp ports. Yes, I will start to move out troops shortly. Keep in mind I still have 2 Pz and 2 PzG on the island so I have to be careful not to pull too much out. But I´m still actually on schedule believe it or not. With time to spare even...

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 2:39:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy Did you put any additional Flak on your airbases to protect them? I can´t remember. I´ll check when I get the turn back. [:)]

Seminole -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 2:52:32 PM)
quote: Yes, in hindsight going for Sardinia wasn´t a good move. But given how the game looks I´m not sure going somewhere else would have been much better. I think the heel is going to be the 'go to' place on Italy. In a full campaign (as opposed to BG Italy) the WA will have to pull plenty of naval patrol assets, and also have their strategic air assets ready to find and crush the LW level bomber bases in central Italy. I think I'm going to start a side game against myself just to decide how I want to re-org the WA air force particularly to this end. quote: Yes, I will start to move out troops shortly. Keep in mind I still have 2 Pz and 2 PzG on the island so I have to be careful not to pull too much out. Yes, but they're handicapped badly in attacking rough terrain, while your infantry enjoy bonuses. They are scary when you leave gaps in your line, but he's playing a dangerous game (that really relies on instilling and maintaining timidity in your response) by keeping them on that island. If you're fighting where he wants to fight, who has the initiative?

Seminole -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 2:56:13 PM)
quote: I really think the mechanics behind the Air Bases should be looked at. You need to be able to stack up supply in preparation of moving AC there. It's the Air Support TOE entry that is so crucial. I hate seeing 100k tons of freight in my depots, but not enough of these guys who are so critical. And it's not a matter of the respective pools being dry either, because I've checked.

Smirfy -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 3:01:05 PM)
It's all a bit convoluted surely you should be able to put a functioning TOE down and only be dependant on supply and size of runway, I fiddle about with all my controls and can't make head or tail of it. the only impression I get is American groups get up to speed quicker. Jumping round empty airbases to you find one that actually "bites" with regards getting support sometime works. With Joc on this needs a bit of a rethink. They are after all week long turns.

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 6:31:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole I think the heel is going to be the 'go to' place on Italy. In a full campaign (as opposed to BG Italy) the WA will have to pull plenty of naval patrol assets, and also have their strategic air assets ready to find and crush the LW level bomber bases in central Italy. I think I'm going to start a side game against myself just to decide how I want to re-org the WA air force particularly to this end. You might turn out to be right in this. But for me to be able to do that I would still had to be in control of more AFs on Sicily and more importantly be able to base planes there which has been impossible so far. So in any case I wouln´t have been able to land for possibly 2-6 turns anyway. quote: ORIGINAL: Seminole Yes, but they're handicapped badly in attacking rough terrain, while your infantry enjoy bonuses. They are scary when you leave gaps in your line, but he's playing a dangerous game (that really relies on instilling and maintaining timidity in your response) by keeping them on that island. If you're fighting where he wants to fight, who has the initiative? Same thing goes for me which is a problem. I can´t clear Sicily with armor alone and armor can´t do Amphib landings. As I see it no matter where or how I go I need Sicily. My bottleneck isn´t the Amphibs. But IDs. Knowing what I know now I would have transferred more IDs to the Med rather then Armor. But I´m still on schedule and everything is going pretty much as planned. I´m in no hurry. Yet. [:)]

Seminole -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 6:39:25 PM)
quote: Same thing goes for me which is a problem. I can´t clear Sicily with armor alone and armor can´t do Amphib landings. As I see it no matter where or how I go I need Sicily. My bottleneck isn´t the Amphibs. But IDs. I think the key is use whatever armor you drop off to sweep the Italians on the west. Stick 8th Army to fight up the eastern side of Sicily where TFs can offer support and aim for Messina on a narrow front. If he tries to stick to the Etna Line while you keep pushing up a 10 mile corridor to Messina he risks getting trapped. His ability to push back an infantry stack in rough terrain is going to be basically nil. Monty's approach will work well here.

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 7:47:25 PM)
______________________________________________________________________________ Turn 9. ______________________________________________________________________________ Slow and steady progress... ------------------------ Northern Europe ------------------------ 13 VPs from bombings this turn. I´m getting there. Sadly its all eaten up by the combat losses. ------------------------ The Med ------------------------ Looks like Meklore gave up on the naval interdiction. Supply is now flowing almost freely. No luck on getting the ABs up though as they are pummeled again. We do expand a couple of hexes and it looks like part of a FJ division might get stuck on the island unless Meklore pulls them out. ------------------------ Sicily ------------------------ Good progress here are well. With the aid of the Air Force we move both along the Northern and Eastern coast. Pelermo is cleared on the first real attack and the defenders routed back to Messina. On the East coast we clear the slopes of Etna. Defense is stiffer on the North coast but with the help of some naval guns we dislodge a FJ division and some FZs. [image]local://upfiles/32406/EADBDADFFA8746378223DA94A085F4BF.jpg[/image]

paullus99 -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/10/2015 8:49:10 PM)
That's a number of German units that are going to be in trouble when you hit Italy proper....

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/11/2015 5:52:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: paullus99 That's a number of German units that are going to be in trouble when you hit Italy proper.... Perhaps. [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/11/2015 6:04:52 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ Air Losses. ______________________________________________________________________________ Its been bloody for both sides in the air during the first 10 weeks. And for once its not only the sacrificial Regia Aeronautica taking all the damage. I´m thinking the pilot losses must be felt. In fact he kept bombing my bases on both Sardinia and Sicily this turn but this time CAP was present and he took some losses. [image]local://upfiles/32406/9F45AD32613A493C879854800413EEC3.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/11/2015 6:23:29 AM)
_____________________________________________________________________________ Victory points ______________________________________________________________________________ A new record for me in bombing VPs. And a boon from Meklore which gives me a positive overall VP of +2...[X(] Admittedly I´m not having any fun with the air war this time around but I´ll keep on pounding that HI because I´m absolutely starved for VPs. Even more so in this game where Meklore has inflicted heavy negative VPs on me on the ground already. No finesse, no tactics, no choices. Keep pounding that HI... Garrison VPs continue to irk me the same way the horrendous "no beachhead" penalty does. While I´m happy for the VPs its a clumsy, flat design that shows the lack of finesse and touch which sadly is present throughout most aspects of this game. But enough about that. +2 VPs. Woohoo? [image]local://upfiles/32406/52B9256C720549E5AFD776639BD77A6F.jpg[/image]

LiquidSky -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/11/2015 6:54:21 AM)
That may be the first time I have ever heard the strategic bombing campaign and the word finesse in the same sentence.

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/11/2015 7:06:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LiquidSky That may be the first time I have ever heard the strategic bombing campaign and the word finesse in the same sentence. Touché! [:D]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/11/2015 11:28:53 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ Turn 10. ______________________________________________________________________________ Not much to report. The 8th hit Berlin for the first time in the war. Losses in heavy bombers have been very light in this game compared to my game against Pelton. Not sure if its a consequence of doing lots of smaller strikes or the fact that Meklore has sent fighters down to the Med. Only Halifax pools are in bad shape but those can always be changed to Lancs. In the Med we slog along advancing 2-4 hexes on both Sardinia and Sicily. We now have a SS unit on Sicily. Unknown which one. No screens today.

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/12/2015 7:00:45 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ Turn 11. ______________________________________________________________________________ Axis withdrawal... ------------------------ Northern Europe ------------------------ Most of the 8th rest after hitting Berlin last week. Raining and low morale. BC continue to pound the Ruhr while the 9th provide the escort. +18 bombing VPs this turn! [&o] ------------------------ The Med ------------------------ Meklore finally abandons Sicily. Some Italians is all that is left. The Panzer Corps retreats back across Messina. On Sardinia the resistance continues but its only Italian forces that are quickly swept aside using the 2 armor IDs. The stage is now set for the next OP. Need to think this through carefully. I have a very bold plan but Meklore proved far more skilled then I thought. So it might be a bit too risky. I might have to rethink my current plan and settle for a more conservative one... Then again...who dares wins. Right? [image]local://upfiles/32406/0ED60E80B89A47478AF2E5589020BEA7.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/13/2015 9:16:50 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ Turn 12 + 13. ______________________________________________________________________________ Sorry for lack of updates. Not much to report which makes writing the AAR pretty dull. [:)] ------------------------ Northern Europe ------------------------ Continued bombing. Peaked VPs last turn with +18 bombing VPs. Dropped down to 17 this turn as I had to hit U-boats last turn. Bomber pools are in good shape while Fighter pools are approaching catastrophic. Not sure what the devs changed in the recent patch but I´m pretty much out of everything including Cobras and Warhawks. [X(] ------------------------ The Med ------------------------ With supply floating to Sardinia we can finally make some progress here. Its slow though due to terrain. No hurry here though. I´ve started prepping for the next set of targets. Invasions shortly. On Sicily Meklore abandoned the island last turn. We secured Messina this turn. Troops are getting some RR before its time to go again. Again, sorry for the lack of updates. I´m sure it will get better once the action starts again. [image]local://upfiles/32406/864691DCFE814EC9B1E063C0E68F89E9.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/13/2015 9:17:43 AM)
______________________________________________________________________________ VPs ______________________________________________________________________________ [image]local://upfiles/32406/C7D853F691F545419716989A6F8E353A.jpg[/image]

Smirfy -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/13/2015 2:42:35 PM)
Would it be possible for you to post the aircraft pools to demonstrate Joc?

Peltonx -> RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax) (3/13/2015 3:24:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister No finesse, no tactics, no choices. Keep pounding that HI... Garrison VPs continue to irk me the same way the horrendous "no beachhead" penalty does. While I´m happy for the VPs its a clumsy, flat design that shows the lack of finesse and touch which sadly is present throughout most aspects of this game. Looking at things historically The WA's and Russia never did anything more then grind grind and grind some more or historically speaking No finesse, no tactics, no choices. Keep pounding/grinding The allies were not very creative at all.

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