Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (Full Version)

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DicedT -> Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 1:11:54 AM)

LiquidSky escorted his RAF night bombers with massed night fighters, and shot down quite a few of my night fighters.

Perhaps this represents intruder missions against German airfields -- which really should be ground attack. Either way, night fighter escorts should be of marginal effectiveness. The RAF should not shooting German night fighters wholesale in 1943.



decourcy2 -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 1:35:15 AM)

It is over effective but, the German night fighters will slaughter Mosquito's left and right which is also unrealistic. And the Mosquito NF replacement rate is pathetic.



DicedT -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 1:49:31 AM)

Mosquitoes do die like flies.



LiquidSky -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 6:14:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

Mosquitoes do die like flies.



I can't help it..I really thought this was funny [:D]



LiquidSky -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 6:15:56 AM)



Hmm..was I actually flying at night? Sometimes I send the BC out during the day. Maybe a quarter of the time. I already 'x'-ed my air doctrines, so I can't look back at the last mission.



marion61 -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 3:18:02 PM)

I don't totally agree with WA shouldn't be shooting up your planes in 43. If you get close enough to England I would use AS and heavy escorts too. I will do that to keep the german fighters closer to Germany and not out intercepting me in the channel. The math may be off for the planes, but I'm not a mathematician, but that's a perfectly valid tactic to protect your bomber fleet.



JocMeister -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 5:22:26 PM)

People fly at night? [X(]


[;)]



HMSWarspite -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/10/2015 6:12:11 PM)

Yes. Much much cheaper for deep raiding...



wokelly -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/11/2015 4:43:40 PM)

Its hard to know, the British didn't really put much effort into night escorts until later in the war, which I feel was a mistake. The British night fighters were pretty much superior to the German designs (Mosquito vs BF110s), and the Serrate detection devices will give even slower designs an advantage over German NFs. Also British NFs have superior radar devices then the German NFs. So it makes sense British NFs should be killing more German NFs then they lose.

When the British NFs were really active in the last months of the war, they definitely put fear into the ranks of the German NF force. A term was coined by German crews in the last months of the war called "Mosquito terror" to denote the inferiority they felt against British NFs.

The British are handicapped by the low NF production numbers, even moderate losses will eat away at their available strength until only the US squadrons can operate.



marion61 -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/11/2015 5:23:04 PM)

Prune your airgroups and it's not a big deal. Sometimes you have to disband some air groups to get pilots and planes for the lesser allies, and I prune most every air force to make them more efficient and keep enough planes in the group to fly missions. I also pull every NF from everywhere back to England turn one and put them into Bomber Command to escort. In one game it's April 44, and I have over 250 NF's flying escort. Get the low experienced first.



DicedT -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/12/2015 1:54:43 PM)

This happened on the first turn. 180 British night fighters versus 330 German NFs, and the Germans lose 101 to 9 British!

As the game stands now, the RAF can establish night air superiority over Germany. This is an alternate universe where the British have UFO technology. Because with mid-1943 radar, and operating over Germany without the benefit of ground control radar, there is no way the RAF night fighters rule the night skies.

If you want to play a game where the British have AWACS radar planes, I'm happy to join. I'll use my D&D 67th level Magic User against your bombers.

DT



[image]local://upfiles/22777/0C92DAB0BE074FBFA481E87359C0B05C.jpg[/image]



Smirfy -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/12/2015 2:56:33 PM)

Unfortunately most of those NF would be tied to UK air defence you would probably have to have a UK air box something like the EF one



Helpless -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/12/2015 3:57:36 PM)

quote:

This happened on the first turn. 180 British night fighters versus 330 German NFs, and the Germans lose 101 to 9 British!


This one looks as a bug. Providing a save could be more constructive way to deal with it.



decourcy2 -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/12/2015 5:53:02 PM)

Yeah, i have done a lot of testing of the air war for my mod and i have never seen results like that. If anything the Mossies probably take a few too many losses, but that is largely because we Axis players cannot set priorities to fighters or bombers.

With the low Mossie production without that bug the British will be out of night fighters quickly.

Also, to many German players are passive and have already concluded Germany lost. You have a huge airforce in '43, use it. If an Allied player pulls all NF's out of the Med to escort night bombers, then use your aircraft in the Med. Do217 NFs can kill night flying Allied naval interdiction.
Launch night raids on Allied ports. See how well the Allies do with Bizerte and Tunis at 100% damage.
Use your Ju88's for night naval interdiction.

There are thousands of options but instead i see complaints that the game is exploitable. But the exploits listed are not exploits.

In '44 preparing for a cross channel invasion, suicide your horded bombers against the invasion ports that you have been reconning.. the invasion will not get far without a functioning port.

Even the constant complaints about the Allies launching a cross channel invasion in '43 are silly, as long as you don't use the exploit it is not like it could not have been done.

People say 'but the Allies learned so much in Husky and Salerno, that is why Overlord succeeded!' That's fine, but a non-exploit '43 cross channel is going to be in the range on 30-40 prep points... overlord handled competently is going to be 90. There is your learning from earlier invasions. Thus, not an exploit.



AWGreif -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/12/2015 6:34:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

This happened on the first turn. 180 British night fighters versus 330 German NFs, and the Germans lose 101 to 9 British!


This one looks as a bug. Providing a save could be more constructive way to deal with it.


It's a server game, AWGreif (WA) vs. DicedT (Axis).
I was most surprised by the outcome of this first turn mission.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/13/2015 5:07:42 PM)

You don't need a UK air box, you just need to play a human GE. The turn after I saw that number of NFs with the bombers I would be nuisance night raiding a load of bomber bases, and the odd factory as well... keep the WA honest, its the only way...:)



Peltonx -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/13/2015 9:33:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DicedT

This happened on the first turn. 180 British night fighters versus 330 German NFs, and the Germans lose 101 to 9 British!

As the game stands now, the RAF can establish night air superiority over Germany. This is an alternate universe where the British have UFO technology. Because with mid-1943 radar, and operating over Germany without the benefit of ground control radar, there is no way the RAF night fighters rule the night skies.

If you want to play a game where the British have AWACS radar planes, I'm happy to join. I'll use my D&D 67th level Magic User against your bombers.

DT



[image]local://upfiles/22777/0C92DAB0BE074FBFA481E87359C0B05C.jpg[/image]


I will have to agree, if it is true = complete Middle Earth stuff going on.

Saves bro saves, sometimes I get a little pissed off myself and forget to save - ok most of the time.

good stuff man, but 2by3 needs data.



JeffroK -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/13/2015 10:22:52 PM)

My first thought was how RAF NF could "escort" a bombing raid??

As a long term BTR player I hate the time I spend setting up RF NF "sweeps" to co-ordinate with a BC Raid, makes it a lot harder to shoot down the Luftwaffe,

IMVHO, the game is using the same calculations/procedure for day & night escorts, and that Mossies are so much better than bf110 they can make a killing.



Helpless -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/13/2015 10:37:08 PM)

quote:

the game is using the same calculations/procedure for day & night escorts


No



HMSWarspite -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/14/2015 10:55:12 AM)

Not all the German losses will be due to NF. And I do agree this looks unlikely, but you have to remember that this has o simulate night intruder missions over a/f as well, so they may be aiming a little high.

Also, as we have no concerns about technology capture, we will send the best NF/AI radar planes over whereas for a long time the RAF wouldnt use radar equipped aircraft over foreign territory (I forget when that stopped)



JeffroK -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/14/2015 10:04:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

the game is using the same calculations/procedure for day & night escorts


No

Then somethings broke.



Helpless -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (3/14/2015 10:10:49 PM)

quote:

Then somethings broke.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3819717



Rugens -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/12/2015 4:55:26 AM)

Had thought this issue had been resolved but apparently not.

Just started a two player game and ran into similar results. I’ve no desire to step through thread but my impression is that Pavel felt there might be a bug but nobody sent him a save.

My input is pretty straight forward. This is a simulation game and as such it should allow players to function in a manner roughly with the same capabilities and restrictions governing the actions of the decision makers of the period. It is of course impossible (and not desirable) to incorporate every little aspect of history but this issue is not exactly little. What the game allows are tactics without precedent in the period that yield results significantly inconsistent with the capabilities of equipment of the period.

That being said I would never attempt to dissuade my opponent from doing what he did. As players it is our job to play the game in the best way we can using all of the tools the game gives us (excepting agreed upon house rules). It is the designer’s job to develop an enjoyable game that defines parameters that will restrict player’s actions to “reasonable” historically possible play. In the current reality of our fairly small hobby, it is the job of the community to help the designers refine the game. As opposed to a couple of comments earlier in this thread, I don’t see raising these issues as complaining. I see raising these issues and the consequent discussion as a necessary part of this refinement process. WITPAE stands out to me as a great example. WITPAE is not for everybody but through the cooperation of the designers and the community, the result is probably the most thoroughly developed, bug free historical simulation to date.

Since this thread dates back to March I am curious to hear what players feel about the issue at this point in the games development 9 months later.



loki100 -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/12/2015 11:25:13 AM)

I've made some use of the new night air superiority mission. In a PPBEM its hard to gauge the effectiveness (I know its happening as my units take some losses). Vs the AI it certainly works, whether it is particularly effective compared to simply using the NFs for bomber escort is a different issue.



Rugens -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/13/2015 4:00:37 AM)

To attach a numbers perspective, the German Night Fighter loss was 175 aircraft (most with pilots). That means nearly 1/3 of the entire German Night Fighter force is destroyed in a single one week turn by tactics and a capability that simply did not exist in the period. I'm struggling to use the term simulation in the same sentence.



Helpless -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/13/2015 10:06:22 AM)

Feel free to share a save which can be used to replicate odd results.



Rugens -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/14/2015 4:27:41 AM)

Glad to. Hope it helps. Here is the save file that is after the allied execution of the turn. If you need the file before the allied player executed the end of his turn I will need to see if my opponent has the file and is willing to share. Let me know if that is the file you need.

BTW, playing with 1.01.12

Save Game File



Helpless -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/14/2015 9:14:42 AM)

Yes, we need save before the event. Thanks.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/14/2015 8:50:31 PM)

I sent Carl my save before air execution and after air execution.



Rugens -> RE: Night Fighter vs. Night Fighter (12/15/2015 1:57:06 AM)

Mike was able to find these two. If you need anything further along he will try to locate.

Save from Allied turn - Air Planning (About midway through Air Planning phase):
T2a



Just in case this once may be of any benefit.

Save from Allied turn - After Air Execution (Before end of turn):
T2b



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