When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (Full Version)

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walkerd -> When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 1:29:01 AM)

I know it is a strange question and the answer is likely to be, the first ones started the dates the refit becomes available.

I am currently giving the Cross Wind Scenario a go, a variant of the DBB Guadalcanal scenario and I noticed most (possibly all) of the ships are not refitted. How accurate is this? My expectation is many of the early refits would have taken place and some ships would be receiving the "current" refits.

Many of my ships and subs due for radar are headed straight to major ports for upgrade, I do not think the Japanese have that ability. I was going to suggest that some of the ships start the scenario refitted.



crsutton -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 4:06:10 AM)

For the most part no. A few Allied ships had radar but it was the crudest type and not reliable. Almost all were equipped with the 1.1 inch AA as well. I don't think any Japanese ship had radar at this stage and most had pitiful AA armament as well. There are some upgrades for Allied ship in the game starting about 4/42 and increasing from there. However, the major upgrades to AA (40 mm bofors)and better radar does not start for the Allies until 10/42.



Barb -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 7:24:19 AM)

IRL ships were usually not undergoing major upgrades in some far ports like Noumea... They usually served until damaged and sent home for repairs or until they were sent on major maintenance and rest (once a year or two).

Almost anyone can swap .50cal for 20mm AA gun on a local trawler converted to minesweeper in whatever little port with few tools.
But to set up new radar, CIC, resite 5inch gun or set up an effective AA director for double barreled 40mm Bofors, overhaul engines, etc... on a Battleship you would have to go to some really big shipyards.



walkerd -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 7:53:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

For the most part no. A few Allied ships had radar but it was the crudest type and not reliable. Almost all were equipped with the 1.1 inch AA as well. I don't think any Japanese ship had radar at this stage and most had pitiful AA armament as well. There are some upgrades for Allied ship in the game starting about 4/42 and increasing from there. However, the major upgrades to AA (40 mm bofors)and better radar does not start for the Allies until 10/42.


The game starts in August 1942 and I am asking about the January and April refit. Not refits that are not available yet.

If a refit was available in January 1942 I would have expected some, if not many of the ships available for that refit would have had them some 7 months later.



walkerd -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 7:58:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

IRL ships were usually not undergoing major upgrades in some far ports like Noumea... They usually served until damaged and sent home for repairs or until they were sent on major maintenance and rest (once a year or two).

Almost anyone can swap .50cal for 20mm AA gun on a local trawler converted to minesweeper in whatever little port with few tools.
But to set up new radar, CIC, resite 5inch gun or set up an effective AA director for double barreled 40mm Bofors, overhaul engines, etc... on a Battleship you would have to go to some really big shipyards.


The ports doing the refits are Sydney and Brisbane, not Noumea.....

Now it may be much more reasonable to expect USA ships to have the refit in major USA port. How ever that still ignores the question that would not some, if not many ships due for refit have had the refit within the 7 month time frame? It could be that only some of that class had the refit, many ships in the class may have taken months, years even to get a refit, if ever.

I am just curios to know.



HansBolter -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 10:52:42 AM)

Works the same way in the game.

Just because a whole class of ships becomes available for an upgrade on a certain date doesn't mean every ship of that class is available for an immediate refit.

It sometimes takes several weeks if not months to get each ship in a class out of duty and into a locale capable of handling the upgrade.



Trugrit -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 12:17:20 PM)


In the DaBabes Guadalcanal scenario which starts on August 6, 1942 all the ships on both sides
Are missing their spring and summer upgrades.

That may be an oversight or a design decision by Nikademus, Symon or others.
You would have to ask them. Most of the upgrades are for ship AA so they may
Have been trying to reduce the allied ship AA in the scenario for game balance.




crsutton -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 1:37:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: walkerd


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

For the most part no. A few Allied ships had radar but it was the crudest type and not reliable. Almost all were equipped with the 1.1 inch AA as well. I don't think any Japanese ship had radar at this stage and most had pitiful AA armament as well. There are some upgrades for Allied ship in the game starting about 4/42 and increasing from there. However, the major upgrades to AA (40 mm bofors)and better radar does not start for the Allies until 10/42.


The game starts in August 1942 and I am asking about the January and April refit. Not refits that are not available yet.

If a refit was available in January 1942 I would have expected some, if not many of the ships available for that refit would have had them some 7 months later.



Well refits are available in 1/42 and 4/42 generally involving adding 20mm guns and early radar. For the most part what you see in 8/42 is what you should see. As said earlier just because a ship qualified for a refit does not mean that it got one. The demands of the war keep the ships in service. If I recall at the first Naval Battle of Guadalcanal only five of the Allied ships had working SG radar.



m10bob -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/12/2015 1:50:06 PM)

At the bottom of each port is a button with which you may choose to turn off refits of the ships in THAT port.
I use this button to turn off the refits in front line ports, allowing refits at rear echelon ports only.

While this does not answer the original posters question, it may prevent some inopportune "downtime" when a ship is urgently needed.[&:]



Alfred -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/13/2015 1:09:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

At the bottom of each port is a button with which you may choose to turn off refits of the ships in THAT port.
I use this button to turn off the refits in front line ports, allowing refits at rear echelon ports only.

While this does not answer the original posters question, it may prevent some inopportune "downtime" when a ship is urgently needed.[&:]


Technically it does not prevent refits at THAT port.

What the button you are referring to does is set the toggle to not refit on the ships which appear in the display. Those individual ships will not refit at any port until the toggle is switched to "yes" for the individual ships subsequently.

Meanwhile back at the first port, any ships which did not appear on the list (perhaps because they were undergoing repairs etc) will not have their toggles switched to no refit merely by use of the said button. Also any subsequent ship arrivals which disband with their toggle set to "yes" will refit at THAT port.

Alfred



walkerd -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/13/2015 1:36:31 AM)

Forgive me if I come across a tad bit snarly. It is likely I am not making myself clear.

Hans: Yes, that is why I am asking the question. I know that. I am looking for factual data on the issue.

Trugrit: Could be, I am really just trying to understand how fast the actual navies implemented the refits in real life.

Crsutton: I am aware of what the refits are. So are you saying that if no ship in the scenario has had a refit, it is because none of them had one at that point in time? If you are aware of how many ships had been refitted at different points in time I would love to have that information, even in a general sense.

Thanks guys



crsutton -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/13/2015 4:19:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: walkerd

Forgive me if I come across a tad bit snarly. It is likely I am not making myself clear.

Hans: Yes, that is why I am asking the question. I know that. I am looking for factual data on the issue.

Trugrit: Could be, I am really just trying to understand how fast the actual navies implemented the refits in real life.

Crsutton: I am aware of what the refits are. So are you saying that if no ship in the scenario has had a refit, it is because none of them had one at that point in time? If you are aware of how many ships had been refitted at different points in time I would love to have that information, even in a general sense.

Thanks guys


Sorry, I don't have a source for that, but generally you can glean the information from the wiki articles on the individual ships. I just did that for the North Carolina. I just have to trust that the people who worked up the OOB for the scenarios did their homework. I suspect for the most part that they did.

I am sure that someone else on the forum will have some sources. You might just start a thread and ask.



HansBolter -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/13/2015 11:21:19 AM)

Also the actual historical rates of ship upgrade were subject to the historical duty requirements of the ships which will never be exactly reproduced in the game because each game deviates from history right form the start.

I don't see how the comparison would have relevance that could be applied in any meaningful way.



Big B -> RE: When did all the refits take place and at what pace? (3/13/2015 8:54:03 PM)

I can't speak for this scenario in particular, but to answer your question, by April 1942 most American warships will be eligible for upgrades that include Radar & 20mm AAA, and by June or July 1942 - 40mm AAA & SG Radar.

By August 1942 most US Navy warships should have this upgrade already at scenario start - as a look at scenario 4 Guadalcanal will illustrate.


B



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