RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (Full Version)

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loki100 -> RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (10/3/2015 8:30:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Its because no Stalingrad.

As I constantly say WitE is not a movie or a book.

No German player is going to throw away 350,000 men.

....


Pelton .. 'Stalingrad' has nothing to do with it, the issue is the impact of fighting in the summer. The reason I fought forward was I assumed (completely incorrectly) that the battering vigabrand's infantry divisions took in the winter would weaken them for the summer. Well it doesn't. This is essentially about the size of manpower reserves and losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Bozo- I dont think its quite that simple...........

I do believe that the German Army is much larger than historical. Even before Stalingrad so the no Stalingrad arguement isnt valid. The entire reason Stalingrad happened was the German Army was very weak/reduced in manpower before the Soviets even attempted the encirclement- something we are not seeing in the game at all.

Now so far me and Peltons game is fairly balanced and has been a tense and IMO a well played match so the game is maybe close to being balanced?? just have to see if the Germans remain to strong or weak 43-45. Again though he still has a way stronger German army than historical despite bitter fighting and counterattacks by my soviet forces.

The issue I have with the game numbers and historical numbers- the game total manpower includes all Airbase, HQ, and in general rear area troops. Im not sure all of the historical totals include some of these manpower sources. Even with the extra men included such as Airbase manpower which Im fairly certain wasnt in the historical numbers you still see a German army probably inflated 500k+ or more over historical levels tho.

As I think all the Luftwaffe HQs = several hundred thousand men...now the massive issue here is the german player can just disband all those luftwaffe HQs and suddenly generate about 2 entire extra armies of trained combat infantrymen over a couple weeks if they want to.......something the German army historical could not.

The main reason you see this IMO is as has been beat to death like a hundred times now........combat losses are to low for both sides. Moraeval has said in the next patch combat losses should increase some for both sides so that should help keep both armies from maintaining 90%+ ToEs.




the idea of converting Luftwaffe bases to combat manpower is really just simple rules abuse. The Germans did some of that and produced a whole load of pretty useless formations. There are accounts of those units deployed as garrisons in Bielorussia doing deals with the local partisans for localised ceasefires (& to warn each other if new formations were moving into the region)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

My extensive tests done for 1.08.05 have shown that armies are indeed stronger in 1.08.00-04 because of repairs after movement. I have slightly reduced the effectiveness of these, while at the same time increased the losses from combat (thanks to reworked "too many attackers penalty"), in order to get closer to 1.07.xx-level totals. Because of the smaller airbases and 41a Rifle Divisions it wasn't possible to get above 100% for 1941, because otherwise the losses for later years were way too high. So comparing to 1.07.xx you can expect less disabled in 1.08.05 but more killed and overall losses will be bigger later in the war (when the fort levels are high). Some German manpower was also rescheduled from 1941 to 1943. Will the current level be enough to force operational pauses just because of mounting losses? Only time will tell. A sample from what I got in AIvsAI games for the first 10 turns of each campaign scenario:

1941GC: German level of losses in 1.08.04 compared to 1.07.15: 80%, Soviet: 87% (killed 80% and 144%). In 1.08.05: 95% and 94% (killed 134% and 189%)
1942GC: 60% and 104% (killed 65% and 180%) vs 82% and 130% (killed 100% and 234%)
StoB: 142% and 102% (killed 210% and 185%) vs 154% and 128% (killed 270% and 221%)
1943GC: killed 93% and 214% vs 152% and 258% (disabled are negative in this scenario, so can't calculate totals)
1944GC: 107% and 101% (killed 77% and 180%) vs 95% and 149% (killed 127% and 284%)
VtoB: 46% and 76% (killed 53% and 94%) vs 118% and 136% (killed 166% and 174%)

Bear in mind I should have done more 1.07.15 tests to have average numbers, but I did only one. For 1.08.05 I did more tests, especially in the middle of development, but less at the end. So the % may vary by as much as 20-30% depending on whether the AI is able to pull of Stalingrad or not, manage to force Rumanian surrender or not etc. Some changes are also caused by different TOE and scenario fixes. Also, players do not waste manpower in headon attack as the AI does. But I would expect an increase in losses, that's for sure.


All this sounds great, I think everyone is well aware of the problems in balancing, really across two aspects. First supply is too permissive (and won't change to WiTE2), but second is across the imposed shifts in the game (ie moments when the rules change without player intervention). Both those have the capacity to disrupt any balance.

agree about the AI, oddly it produces a more realistic game than PBEM due to its tendency to attack. Against the AI I find I'm burning off masses of supply as ammunition, in PBEM its not really something I notice



VigaBrand -> RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (10/3/2015 10:34:12 AM)

Hi,
I didn't delete some air bases. I had three empty ones in Poland and every army HQ had its own.
But I agree with Loki, I had nearly 250k manpower reserves in the pool at the start of the summer.
But I had two panzer armies and two infantery armies in Poland during the winter and they didn't loose moral and manpower during the first winter. That was my idea for economy of forces. So they were stronger because every unit in this armies had 85+ moral after the winter.



chaos45 -> RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (10/3/2015 2:37:43 PM)

Thats a whole different issue that the Germans can pull an entire Army Group out of the line and still survive the winter with an intact army lol.

All in all I still think this game is headed for an eventual German defeat as the automatic morale changes represent massive shifts in combat power between the two armies. By middle of 1943 when the changes have fully happened its something like a 20% change in total combat power to the benefit of the Soviets.

Loki took some massive losses in 1942 but all in all he will recover over the winter and he still has fairly good starting positions for his eventual march west. Viga inflicted very heavy losses but territory wise hes behind historical. Which means fewer hexes to Berlin once the tide turns.

Will be interesting to see the match continue.



Gabriel B. -> RE: Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942 (10/5/2015 7:20:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100



Now for some reason all/most of my images have disappeared. As I'm away from home (in fact out on the western edge of Europe), I can't chase it up but I can't see any images using either firefox or chrome. So while I have an update ready, as a sort of overview of the summer not sure its worth posting. But for now, here's a simple spreadsheet showing how badly the 1942 fighting has hit my army:

[image]local://upfiles/43256/6D3C9619ADAF481FA305843DC25B8A48.jpg[/image]


You have built at least 100 art reg compared to june 1941.

can we know what kind ?

I aim for

24 Bm how regiments-24 guns
36 152 mm how regiments-24 guns
24 Army art regiments -36 152mm field guns.

that would fill 24 arty divisions by 1943 with the heavy artilery while using the componet regiments
in the mean time.

In early 1942 when the BM reiments dowgrade they get move to stavka reserve,while the army art regiments
start to disband in late 1942. the 152 mm How regiments could be used up to early 1943



morvael -> RE: Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942 (10/5/2015 7:24:22 AM)

If you link to some external image hosting sites, you're probably blocked from accessing them from your current location. I have the same problems from my place of work on multiple sites.



chaos45 -> RE: Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942 (10/5/2015 12:33:22 PM)

Honestly why disband the artillery regiments? I found my artillery and rocket divisions filled up just fine when I built them in later 1942.

Also the Soviets have a huge AP crunch to try and convert the Army from hold back/absorb German assaults all of 1942 to counterattack and start pushing west as fast as possible in 1943. So spending AP on disbanding artillery regiments seems a very big waste of resources. I still have some Battalions hanging out just because I would rather use the AP to form new regiments than disbanding sapper BN sitting around some Army HQs.

Maybe with the change back to 45 NM the soviets will lose slightly less units to encirclement destruction in 1942 IDK......but right now it really seems to me the Soviets get to few AP to do near historical performance of unit creation and corps building....especially when you also take into account you need to shift formations between armies/fronts sometimes and you need to change leaders.

I dont think I have reassigned a Soviet leader in over 6 months of game time just because there are so many more important things to spend the AP on than getting a 1-2 bump in stats on a single army/front leader.

Also it appears that the AP loss I took in units after Nov 1941 is pretty standard in all the other current AARs.....Again waiting to save judgement to see how hard/long it takes to start pushing the Germans back and if historical progress for the soviets is possible.

So far I have inflicted the highest German losses of all the AARs and Pelton has about the lowest German OOB- up to FEB 1943 but in game terms it hasnt made one bit of difference the German army is still very strong all along the front and only with massive concentration of force can the smallest bit of headway be made by Soviet Forces. By massive I mean- several Corps backed by several divisions of artillery are needed for almost any progress to be made.

As to Axis weakness- really just isnt any- along the entire line is one weak hex in a quiet out of the way sector of axis allied only forces and it still has almost 20 CV....Most the German line is 30+ CV with most still 40+ CV aside from where I have massive assaults keeping the Germans from getting heavily dug-in and even then since the Germans have the forces to spare I face stacks of 20-30 CV. Now Im making extremely slow progress and should be inflicting more losses than hes replacing per turn...but the ground gains are still minimal. So as we get towards Summer of 1943 will see if the Germans have to start giving ground or not.



Peltonx -> RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (10/5/2015 6:15:02 PM)


ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Its because no Stalingrad.

As I constantly say WitE is not a movie or a book.

No German player is going to throw away 350,000 men.

....


Pelton .. 'Stalingrad' has nothing to do with it, the issue is the impact of fighting in the summer.
The reason I fought forward was I assumed (completely incorrectly) that the battering vigabrand's
infantry divisions took in the winter would weaken them for the summer.
Well it doesn't. This is essentially about the size of manpower reserves and losses.



They are weaker then 41 by allot because general morale is in mid 60's by June 42 and not low 80's as during summer of 41.

The game snow balls so if Germany does good to great during 41, Russian 41/42 offensive will not be that hard hitting which snowballs into Germans being above average going into 42 summer and Russians being below average.

We know what that looks like your game and my game vs 37 other people

BUT

If the german does average and Russian simply does historical or a little less then historical there is a snowball growing for the Russian and not the german in summer of 42- sure the german attacks but runs out of steam early and then its all down hill from there very quickly.

Pelton vs Dave even if the german player does far better then historical in every way possible,
as long as the Russian player holds Moscow ( VP 260) the ruusian player will get a draw at min as taking out Finland is a given and after that you don't even have to get to Poland or Romania and its a draw.

You have a draw if u simply hold Moscow.



Peltonx -> RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (10/5/2015 6:31:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45


All in all I still think this game is headed for an eventual German defeat as the automatic
morale changes represent massive shifts in combat power between the two armies.
By middle of 1943 when the changes have fully happened its something like a 20%
change in total combat power to the benefit of the Soviets.

Loki took some massive losses in 1942 but all in all
he will recover over the winter and he still has fairly
good starting positions for his eventual march west.
Viga inflicted very heavy losses but territory wise hes
behind historical. Which means fewer hexes to Berlin once the tide turns.

Will be interesting to see the match continue.


Its not all about morale, but it is a big issue as I have pointed out.

I have played allot of game past 43 and generally speaking the lines don't break until rivers freeze in dec 43 and then it takes a while still for Russians to crack the fort lines in the south.

The north always holds because of terrain sure Stavka can take a few hexes a turn but during summer 43 German army has more then enough strength to hold the onlines and dig faster then Stavka can advance.

The key is did the Russian player build the right balance of forces and does the German player know how to defend without get units pocketed?

Some German armys get pocketed during 43 because they have no idea what they are doing and the Russian player does.

Not many people have the exp of playing past 42 much less 43.

Also a Russian play can appear to have and easy win and complete build the wrong stuff and get wiped out in late 43 yup there is one AAR showing this.

The land is not the key its when the lines crack, but more land does help.

Vigabrand has less land but higher morale + if loki screws up his army he will not be able to crack the lines until 44 so the turns/hexes to Berlin ratio is the same.

There are dozens of factors that go into when the lines crack and the hex to turn ratio and the most important for Russian is what they are building, if they screw up you can have a complete truck collapse and your not going anyplace fast or slow for that matter.



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942 (10/5/2015 6:42:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Honestly why disband the artillery regiments? I found my artillery and rocket divisions filled up just fine when I built them in later 1942.

Also the Soviets have a huge AP crunch to try and convert the Army from hold back/absorb German assaults all of 1942 to counterattack and start pushing west as fast as possible in 1943. So spending AP on disbanding artillery regiments seems a very big waste of resources. I still have some Battalions hanging out just because I would rather use the AP to form new regiments than disbanding sapper BN sitting around some Army HQs.

Maybe with the change back to 45 NM the soviets will lose slightly less units to encirclement destruction in 1942 IDK......but right now it really seems to me the Soviets get to few AP to do near historical performance of unit creation and corps building....especially when you also take into account you need to shift formations between armies/fronts sometimes and you need to change leaders.

I dont think I have reassigned a Soviet leader in over 6 months of game time just because there are so many more important things to spend the AP on than getting a 1-2 bump in stats on a single army/front leader.

Also it appears that the AP loss I took in units after Nov 1941 is pretty standard in all the other current AARs.....Again waiting to save judgement to see how hard/long it takes to start pushing the Germans back and if historical progress for the soviets is possible.

So far I have inflicted the highest German losses of all the AARs and Pelton has about the lowest German OOB- up to FEB 1943 but in game terms it hasnt made one bit of difference the German army is still very strong all along the front and only with massive concentration of force can the smallest bit of headway be made by Soviet Forces. By massive I mean- several Corps backed by several divisions of artillery are needed for almost any progress to be made.

As to Axis weakness- really just isnt any- along the entire line is one weak hex in a quiet out of the way sector of axis allied only forces and it still has almost 20 CV....Most the German line is 30+ CV with most still 40+ CV aside from where I have massive assaults keeping the Germans from getting heavily dug-in and even then since the Germans have the forces to spare I face stacks of 20-30 CV. Now Im making extremely slow progress and should be inflicting more losses than hes replacing per turn...but the ground gains are still minimal. So as we get towards Summer of 1943 will see if the Germans have to start giving ground or not.


Historically speaking

What if no Stalingrad and what if no stupid Kursk?

You get just what most games turn into during 43, which was what many German Generals wanted to do during 43.

So again WitE is not a book or a movie, its about what ifs.

Most players choose not to throw out 350,000 troops and not waste manpower in July 43.

Losses are never historical because players choose not to follow history, they try to make history or why bother playing?







loki100 -> RE: T70: 15-21 October 1942 (10/5/2015 6:48:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

Hi,
I didn't delete some air bases. I had three empty ones in Poland and every army HQ had its own.
But I agree with Loki, I had nearly 250k manpower reserves in the pool at the start of the summer.
But I had two panzer armies and two infantery armies in Poland during the winter and they didn't loose moral and manpower during the first winter. That was my idea for economy of forces. So they were stronger because every unit in this armies had 85+ moral after the winter.


Hi, realise you've not deleted the air bases ... think that trick is extremely gamey.

be interesting to see how the various gambles and mistakes play out over the next phase, think what will be critical is when you feel you have to go over to the operational defense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Thats a whole different issue that the Germans can pull an entire Army Group out of the line and still survive the winter with an intact army lol.

All in all I still think this game is headed for an eventual German defeat as the automatic morale changes represent massive shifts in combat power between the two armies. By middle of 1943 when the changes have fully happened its something like a 20% change in total combat power to the benefit of the Soviets.

Loki took some massive losses in 1942 but all in all he will recover over the winter and he still has fairly good starting positions for his eventual march west. Viga inflicted very heavy losses but territory wise hes behind historical. Which means fewer hexes to Berlin once the tide turns.

Will be interesting to see the match continue.


what I have, which I think is very unusual is effectively limitless supply and arms pts. I've not had one turn when my supply flow went negative and have about 1m arms pts. Now that means that the only constraint on my artillery build up is going to be the lack of admin pts, need for corps and to repair the gaps torn in my OOB by the summer battles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.
...

You have built at least 100 art reg compared to june 1941.

can we know what kind ?

I aim for

24 Bm how regiments-24 guns
36 152 mm how regiments-24 guns
24 Army art regiments -36 152mm field guns.

that would fill 24 arty divisions by 1943 with the heavy artilery while using the componet regiments
in the mean time.

In early 1942 when the BM reiments dowgrade they get move to stavka reserve,while the army art regiments
start to disband in late 1942. the 152 mm How regiments could be used up to early 1943


I'll dig out a comparison when I'm back home, only have a few recent saves at the moment.

generally my artillery strategy is different. I often scrap the heavy SUs as those guns are used by the 2nd generation artillery divisions and cost a lot of arms pts etc to build. But in this game I have arms pts to burn, and no real supply constraint.

so on that basis I'm keeping everything. Since mid-42 I've built the SUs with the most guns (the corps artillery?) and also those light gun regiments. From observation the 76mm is not much of a killer but it generates a lot of disruption.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Honestly why disband the artillery regiments? I found my artillery and rocket divisions filled up just fine when I built them in later 1942.

Also the Soviets have a huge AP crunch to try and convert the Army from hold back/absorb German assaults all of 1942 to counterattack and start pushing west as fast as possible in 1943. So spending AP on disbanding artillery regiments seems a very big waste of resources. I still have some Battalions hanging out just because I would rather use the AP to form new regiments than disbanding sapper BN sitting around some Army HQs.

Maybe with the change back to 45 NM the soviets will lose slightly less units to encirclement destruction in 1942 IDK......but right now it really seems to me the Soviets get to few AP to do near historical performance of unit creation and corps building....especially when you also take into account you need to shift formations between armies/fronts sometimes and you need to change leaders.

I dont think I have reassigned a Soviet leader in over 6 months of game time just because there are so many more important things to spend the AP on than getting a 1-2 bump in stats on a single army/front leader.

Also it appears that the AP loss I took in units after Nov 1941 is pretty standard in all the other current AARs.....Again waiting to save judgement to see how hard/long it takes to start pushing the Germans back and if historical progress for the soviets is possible.

So far I have inflicted the highest German losses of all the AARs and Pelton has about the lowest German OOB- up to FEB 1943 but in game terms it hasnt made one bit of difference the German army is still very strong all along the front and only with massive concentration of force can the smallest bit of headway be made by Soviet Forces. By massive I mean- several Corps backed by several divisions of artillery are needed for almost any progress to be made.

As to Axis weakness- really just isnt any- along the entire line is one weak hex in a quiet out of the way sector of axis allied only forces and it still has almost 20 CV....Most the German line is 30+ CV with most still 40+ CV aside from where I have massive assaults keeping the Germans from getting heavily dug-in and even then since the Germans have the forces to spare I face stacks of 20-30 CV. Now Im making extremely slow progress and should be inflicting more losses than hes replacing per turn...but the ground gains are still minimal. So as we get towards Summer of 1943 will see if the Germans have to start giving ground or not.


big question really is when vigabrand stops anything but tactical offensives, we've just had a surreal set of turns for weather which can't have helped him at all ... its eaten a lot of the time he had left till the 50 morale kicks in for 1943. My hope ... as above ... is that artillery will be my key tool in the first phase. Don't really care about gains, its attrition etc I'm out for

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Its because no Stalingrad.

As I constantly say WitE is not a movie or a book.

No German player is going to throw away 350,000 men.

....


Pelton .. 'Stalingrad' has nothing to do with it, the issue is the impact of fighting in the summer.
The reason I fought forward was I assumed (completely incorrectly) that the battering vigabrand's
infantry divisions took in the winter would weaken them for the summer.
Well it doesn't. This is essentially about the size of manpower reserves and losses.



They are weaker then 41 by allot because general morale is in mid 60's by June 42 and not low 80's as during summer of 41.

The game snow balls so if Germany does good to great during 41, Russian 41/42 offensive will not be that hard hitting which snowballs into Germans being above average going into 42 summer and Russians being below average.

We know what that looks like your game and my game vs 37 other people

BUT

If the german does average and Russian simply does historical or a little less then historical there is a snowball growing for the Russian and not the german in summer of 42- sure the german attacks but runs out of steam early and then its all down hill from there very quickly.

Pelton vs Dave even if the german player does far better then historical in every way possible,
as long as the Russian player holds Moscow ( VP 260) the ruusian player will get a draw at min as taking out Finland is a given and after that you don't even have to get to Poland or Romania and its a draw.

You have a draw if u simply hold Moscow.


I think that balancing out 1942 is going to be the big challenge. Nobody wants a wall of steel or the game may as well end with the start of 1942 mud. Equally no one wants total collapses due to game mechanics.

WiTE 2 will have the huge benefit of WiTW logistics .. that effectively has a powerful 'penalty for doing well' as well as making angles of major operations much more obvious. In combination that will put both sides on a shorter leash than now.



loki100 -> Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/5/2015 6:52:58 PM)

Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942

For both armies, the shifting weather patterns of autumn and early winter 1942 had a major influence on their operations.

The end of October saw bad weather in the north but relatively clear and dry conditions in the south. The result was both armies made limited attacks in the Rostov area in an attempt to improve their positions.

However, Soviet recconnaisance flights had detected a major German build up south of the Oka. The most likely target was Ryazan and then to threaten Moscow from the south.

Stavka, opted to gamble on the weather and ordered Bryansk Front to hold its current positions rather than fall back. If the Soviet withdrawal could be well timed it would leave the German armour lacking infantry support when they hit the main defensive lines. In addition, the armoured formations of Voronezh Front were pulled out of the Rostov sector and redeployed to build up at Ryazan. If the Germans did attack here they would face the rebuilt 4 Shock Army with new artillery formations, all 5 Tank Armies and Malinovsky's 40 Army with its veteran cavalry-armoured units.

The freshly raised Southwestern Front under Georgy Zakharov took control of elite formations released from the Stavka reserve.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/5379/XSqFdz.jpg[/image]
[1]

In effect, almost 70% of the armoured forces of the Red Army were moved into this sector (ignoring armour in the various reserve tank brigades).

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/1908/i0AuVn.jpg[/image]
(elements of 3 Tank Army taking up defensive positions south of the Oka)

In turn the VVS went over onto the offensive. Previously it had pulled back in poor weather to recover and retrain. This time, reinforced by the newly deployed Yak-9s, the Soviets reached deep behind the German lines. Prime targets were the German reconnaisance assets, as Stavka tried to mask its build up.

The first week of November saw winter briefly lift as warm air led to massive rainstorms.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img912/3448/4rKd1m.jpg[/image]

Again the only active operations were in the Rostov-Voroshilovgrad sector where Soviet formations hit Romanian and Hungarian units as they gradually tried to weaken the overall German defensive positions.

Early November again saw rain rather than the expected snow.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img913/9184/JvPVAW.jpg[/image]
[2]

This time, Stavka ordered Bryansk Front to pull back to the prepared Ryazan defensive line. Southwestern Front was in reserve and Voronezh Front was deployed to the south of the expected line of German advance.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/7878/M2z0kX.jpg[/image]

The air campaign continued with unrelenting ferocity. In 3 weeks the Soviets lost 500 planes but destroyed 220 Axis planes.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img901/3521/RPg59k.jpg[/image]
(Yak-9s near Ryazan)

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img912/1996/D2FN1z.jpg[/image]

On the night of 11-12 November the temperatures plunged as winter returned. The largest tank battle of the war was about to take place on the frozen steppe to the south of the Oka.

[1] – first of my 'army' commanders who I can promote to a front command for no extra penalty.
[2] This must have been frustrating for vigabrand as it allowed me to pull off a major redeployment as well as bring up the freshly raised artillery divisions. I think that bit of extreme luck may just have saved me.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/5/2015 7:30:01 PM)

My preferred arty SUs are:

41 Army Artillery Regiment of 36 152mm Gun-Howitzers
41 Artillery Regiment RVGK of 24 122mm Field Guns and 12 152mm Gun-Howitzers

My Preferred Arty CUs are

Jan-Sep 1942 Light Howitzer Brigade of 60 122mm howitzers
Oct 1942 - end Artillery/Breakthrough Artillery Division
Nov 1942-Aug 44 Guards Heavy Rocket Brigade of 480 BM-30-4 Rocket launchers



chaos45 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/5/2015 8:26:37 PM)

Agree with those M60 my preferred builds as well best bang for the AP buck. Although I have also been building the guard rocket divisions instead of the BDE.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/5/2015 8:35:10 PM)

Four reasons I changed from heavy rocket divisions to brigades

1. You get almost 100 more launchers with 2 brigades vs. 1 division and AP spend is the same.
2. Brigades give you more flexibility to move them about.
3. You can start brigades in Nov 43. Divisions come a month later.
4. Both units downgrade in size/effectiveness in 1944 but brigade changes after division does, September vs March. So the brigade stays effective during first half of summer 44.



chaos45 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/5/2015 9:07:11 PM)

good to know will have to add some BDEs maybe...the only issue u have is stacking. As BDEs then take two spots one hex away...I have a tendency to rotate assault units so space behind the lines gets tight.



loki100 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/6/2015 6:56:29 PM)

think you are both missing the advantage of lighter guns (ie the 76mm). They fire a lot more and take up relatively little supply/ammunition.

going by running attacks very slowly, my instinct is they don't kill much but they do disrupt. Two advantages to this - the obvious is that disrupted units don't fight but also that disrupted units are more likely to flip to damaged/destroyed.

wouldn't want to just rely on the 76mm light gun regiments, but don't overlook them just because you'd rather concentrate on heavy guns



chaos45 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/6/2015 8:01:53 PM)

The divisions have 76mm guns....as well if you look at Soviet Divisions/Corps they have loads of 76mm/122mm but no heavy guns. Thats one reason I figure better to go bigger with the support artillery. The regular artillery divisions once they upgrade are you best bet Im guess....I will say right now tho the rocket divisions add a ton of fire to my assaults...they have 3 CV as an artillery unit lol.



Gabriel B. -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/7/2015 6:02:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

think you are both missing the advantage of lighter guns (ie the 76mm). They fire a lot more and take up relatively little supply/ammunition.

going by running attacks very slowly, my instinct is they don't kill much but they do disrupt. Two advantages to this - the obvious is that disrupted units don't fight but also that disrupted units are more likely to flip to damaged/destroyed.

wouldn't want to just rely on the 76mm light gun regiments, but don't overlook them just because you'd rather concentrate on heavy guns


Than build At regiments , they use even less ammo (direct fire) than light gun regiments, and from april 42 they use the same guns and about the same number (20). Prior to that the 85 mm is the best gun in at role the soviets have early on.



loki100 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/7/2015 5:09:26 PM)

Do hope the 76mm AT gun behaves differently to the 76mm artillery? I actually build both, and the armies likely to be in the Ukraine get at least 2 AT regiments.

For the most part I don't build SUs that replicate the core TOEs. As an eg, there is no point building AT units that use the 45mm. The only reason the Soviets kept that in use was it was cheap, very portable and then had masses. Even by 1942 it was effectively useless.

I do build mortar and light gun SUs as both inflict quite a lot of disruption, are cheap (arms pts) and it does no harm to have more than just the core ToE provides.



Gabriel B. -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/8/2015 5:09:18 AM)

Wrt 76mm zis
I had used this gun as a training gun during national service , ( as a mountain unit, we had pack howitzers similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTO_Melara_Mod_56 ).

I guess it could be uselfull against exposed infantry , but against dug in infantry it does not pack a lot of punch.



loki100 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/8/2015 7:58:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Wrt 76mm zis
I had used this gun as a training gun during national service , ( as a mountain unit, we had pack howitzers similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTO_Melara_Mod_56 ).

I guess it could be uselfull against exposed infantry , but against dug in infantry it does not pack a lot of punch.


that makes sense.

somewhere I have a Soviet infantry training instruction manual thats shows the impact zone of the main artillery calibres (76/122/152) and the amount of cover they provide.

I'd like to find it back as it is quite instructive, but if I recall the 76mm impact zone was under waist height (so say 70-90cm) which clearly wouldn't do much damage to dug in positions but would be deadly to troops moving across open ground.



Matnjord -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/8/2015 11:16:31 AM)

quote:

The largest tank battle of the war was about to take place on the frozen steppe to the south of the Oka.


Ooh, exciting stuff. Show those panzers what your T34 can do Loki!



loki100 -> RE: Turns 71-73: 22 October- 11 November 1942 (10/8/2015 9:55:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matnjord

quote:

The largest tank battle of the war was about to take place on the frozen steppe to the south of the Oka.


Ooh, exciting stuff. Show those panzers what your T34 can do Loki!


well the weather helps more than my tactics to be honest ... but I think vigabrand makes a rare mistake in splitting up his armour, 5 Pzr Corps struggle against an elite shock army and all 5 of my tank armies



loki100 -> Turn 74: 12 – 18 November 194 (10/8/2015 10:03:45 PM)

Turn 74: 12 – 18 November 1942

Mid November saw full winter conditions around Moscow but rain along the Black Sea coast.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img631/4111/ipPGhs.jpg[/image]

Despite expecting a renewal of the German offensive, Stavka was surprised when the opening blow was on the northern edge of Lake Ladoga. As a result, 7 Army pulled back to a shorter defensive line. With only a single armoured division, the Finns could drive the Soviet units back but lacked the capacity to unhinge the overall defensive line.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/8624/JqhK6Z.jpg[/image]

At Ryazan, the blizzard conditions and the Soviet pull back at the end of the previous week had the effect of reducing the initial impact of the German offensive. Their opening blow hit empty space and their armour faced the frustration of moving across demolished bridges and mined roads. Every small town had been turned into a death trap with booby traps.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/9695/TBwRCX.jpg[/image]
(Soviet village in flames near Ryazan)

In particular their infantry lagged behind and took little part in the attacks to the west of Ryazan.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img631/9493/HHWIB8.jpg[/image]

By the 14th, the German armour hit the Soviet main defensive line. Their northern arm was led by 46 Panzer Corps which drove elements of both 20 and 60 Army back but were unable to complete the planned encirclement. In the centre 41 and 47 Panzer Corps made progress directly towards Ryazan but their main attack was on the southern route.

Here 56 and 57 Panzer Corps wrecked the defensive positions of 16 Army allowing them to threaten the railway south of Ryazan at Birkino.

In response, Soviet armour struck at the southern flank of the German spearhead.

4 Tank Army drove back 56 Panzer Corp's 20 Motorised Division and overran the corps HQ.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img631/3641/2mTHgU.jpg[/image]
(artillery moving up from Stavka reserve)

On the outskirts of Ryazan, 4 Shock Army drove back 6 and 7 Panzer Divisions

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img901/2687/vV3xSH.jpg[/image]

As a result, briefly 8 and 24 Panzer Divisions were isolated and were forced to hastily retreat by 2 Tank Army.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/6398/pDMY5F.jpg[/image]

In turn, to increase the pressure on the Germans, 40 Army drove back 57 Panzer Corps

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/2660/AtuMSe.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img631/3395/RpKtb0.jpg[/image]

It became clear that the equivalent of 2 Panzer Armies were in action at Ryazan as substantial German armoured and motorised forces were detected to the north of Borodino. Here, it was not clear if the Germans wanted to push North Western Front east of the Volga or push over the Larna to threaten Moscow from the north.

Stavka ordered 22 Army to disengage and move back into reserve while fresh formations were allocated to Volkhov Front's 29 Army to shore up the defensive line on the Larna.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img901/9355/H9BSf7.jpg[/image]

However, despite the Soviet counter-attacks restoring the front line, the reality was the Soviet defensive line was weak. The equivalent of 4 Armies, drawn from 2 separate fronts were inter-mingled west of Ryazan and the Soviet reserves mostly committed. Only the 2 Tank Armies of Southwestern Front were left to be committed.

Losses were predictably heavy for both sides. The Germans lost 23,000 men (7,000 killed), 170 tanks and 200 planes while the Soviets lost 110,000 men (19,000 killed and 60,000 prisoners), 300 tanks and 150 planes.

As both armies prepared for the inevitable renewal of the German offensive, the weather again intervened.



loki100 -> a question (10/11/2015 7:25:09 PM)

In the next post I've put far more individual battle reports than normal. Mainly as it is noticeable that combat losses have become very even - almost regardless of the actual outcome.

When I'm attacking, one reason may well be I am starting to use artillery divisions and rocket brigades on a regular basis (with my excess of arms pts I am building a lot). But it is also happening when vigabrand attacks.

I think this is down to the late 42 rifle corps/division ToE with more elements (even if less men) and more heavy weapons. May also be the return to 45 NM.

Reason I'm asking is in a way this feeds into the debate about overall game balance and flow for WiTE2 on the main forum.

any views?



loki100 -> Turns 75-76: 19 November – 2 December 1942 (10/11/2015 7:34:01 PM)

Turns 75-76: 19 November – 2 December 1942

As so often in the final months of 1942, the weather proved to be more important than the decisions of either army. The temperatures rose again leading to a sudden thaw and torrential rainfall bringing both sides to a standstill.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/5459/UfB2Q3.jpg[/image]
[1]

The Soviets took the chance to reorganise their Ryazan defences for the expected onslaught.

On 25 November the temperatures again fell and the ground froze. The light snowfall favoured the renewed German operations.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/8335/JoZs59.jpg[/image]

On a narrow front the Germans drove to the Oka and almost surrounded Ryazan. In addition, another Panzer army struck towards Kalinin but failed to achieve a major breakthroughs.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/7051/ZuVPqM.jpg[/image]

Among the casualties were Nikolai Bezarin, commander of North-West Front's 27 Army. The circumstances of his death remain shrouded in mystery but it would appear he was being driven in a car that had only recently been repaired in the specialist NKVD workshops.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/352/8TRo5D.jpg[/image]

The result of the German offensive and Soviet response was fierce fighting on four separate sectors of the front.

Rostov

Here Crimean and Trans-Caucasus Fronts continued their limited offensive within the Don-Donets bend.

Near Rostov, a timely German intervention allowed the Italian mountain divisions to fend off a Soviet attack.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/7530/Ys5553.jpg[/image]
[2]

However, the mobile formations of Crimean Front made more progress against the Romanians and Hungarians defending the northern flank of the Axis forces in this region.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/2905/dE1aok.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/7465/LztyTv.jpg[/image]

Kalinin

In response to the German offensive, Stavka ordered the re-equipped 2nd Shock Army to hit the flank of 39 Panzer Corps while 22 Army drove the Germans back from the outskirts of Kalinin.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img912/2058/j0es5v.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/4782/acAtYC.jpg[/image]
(Elements of 2 Shock Army in action)

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/5108/y5pvai.jpg[/image]

Moscow

Here Stavka ordered the reinforced Kalinin Front to launch a limited offensive towards the historic battlefield of Borodino. It was clear that there were no armoured reserves behind the German lines and a steady series of attacks were supported by the freshly arrived artillery and rocket formations.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/2288/iz2NlE.jpg[/image]
(Katyusha salvo in support of 24 Army)

Ryazan

However the main focus for both sides was on the massive armoured clash at Ryazan.

The northern wing of their offensive was opened by the infantry of 35 Corps which disrupted the defensive line of 60 Army and allowed 46 Panzer Corps to reach the Oka and swing south. Badly battered, 60 Army was steadily driven east of the Oka but inflicted heavy losses on the attacking Panzers.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/5741/1jBmR2.jpg[/image]

In the centre, their 27 Corps, with massive artillery support, routed elements of 16 Army. In turn elements of 24 and 57 Panzer tangled with the stronger defences of 4 Shock Army that had been screened by 16 Army.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img901/8277/02nJt5.jpg[/image]

In a day of sustained combat, 24 Panzer finally broke through to the north but 57 Panzer was held due to a timely counter-attack by elements of 5 Tank Army.

A renewal of their attack on 30 November forced back 1 Guards Rifle Corps and 41 and 56 Panzer pushed past the destruction of the earlier fighting inching their way slowly to the south of Ryazan against fierce resistance by 40 Army.

In the meantime 24 Panzer swung north, again being caught up in the defensive lines of 4 Shock

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img910/2384/g4lXB7.jpg[/image]

By 1 December, 24 Panzer and 46 Panzer met just north of Ryazan trapping 5 divisions from 16 and 60 Armies in a small pocket.

In turn, the Soviet defenders were exhausted by the sustained fighting. 40 Army and 3 Tank Army managed a small counter-attack to the south of Ryazan driving back 56 Panzer and giving the Soviet defenders the space to reorganise.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img908/312/zCnJjC.jpg[/image]

In the meantime Stavka allowed the armoured formations of Voronezh Front to rest while their infantry fell back to the rail junction at Ryazhsk.

However, the need for the Germans to concentrate to make any gains against the strenthening Soviet resistance meant their flanks were increasingly exposed. In particular their defensive line on the southern bank of the Oka was weakly held by infantry only formations. Stavka ordered the Western Front to redeploy from defending the Nara to prepare for a counter stroke against the German flank if the Oka was to freeze in the coming days.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img901/8836/plOr69.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/8705/SQMqwn.jpg[/image]

Losses matched the intensity of the fighting.

The Germans lost 57,000 men (18,000 killed), 240 tanks and 280 planes for Soviet losses of 108,000 men (34,000 killed), 640 tanks and 440 planes.

[1] This was lucky, for me. It allowed me to pull back some good formations to where they couldn't be surrounded. Equally it has cost vigabrand one of the relatively few weeks before the 1943 NM shift takes effect.
[2] Frustratingly that is the second time those Italians have won a battle ...



loki100 -> Turn 77: 3 – 9 December 1942 (10/20/2015 7:08:36 AM)

Turn 77: 3 – 9 December 1942

The German offensive seemed to slacken in the first week of December. At Ryazan they tried for another encirclement south of the city but their other major operations were a series of limited probes into the lines held by North-Western Front and a localised counter-attack on Crimean Front's spearheads.

To Stavka it appeared as if Moscow had been saved despite the Bryansk disaster in September. Tolbukhin's 24 Army had been instrumental in turning a panicked rout into a controlled retreat, as well as launching a steady series of heavy counterattacks.

In reward he was promoted to General-Polkhovnik and urgent discussions began as to which of the main Fronts he should take command.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/1338/3bEo1L.jpg[/image]

Ryazan

Here it appeared as if the determination of the Soviet resistance in the previous week had badly weakened the Germans. They had swung south in an attempt to encircle 21 and 34 Armies but had failed to secure their encirclement. In response Stavka identified the opportunity not just to disrupt their lines of communication but to cut off the two Panzer Corps that were to the east of 21 Army.

The opening blow was struck by 4 Shock Army on elements of 56 Panzer Corps. However, the Germans managed to respond to the threat and the exhausted formations of 4 Shock were forced to fall back to their starting positions.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/4496/SxyEJc.jpg[/image]
[1]

The failure of 4 Shock disrupted the Soviet plans, but the opportunity still existed and the elite mobile formations of 40 Army again hit 56 Panzer. In desperate fighting again the Germans held. This time both sides heavily committed their air support and in the fierce air battles the new Yak-9s proved their value.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/7848/dg2AWS.jpg[/image]
[2]

With the failure of the northern wing, a full encirclement was no longer possible. Still early on 5 December, 3 Tank Army struck the overextended formations of 57 Panzer. The result was a day of brutal fighting that only ended with over 300 tanks burning in the snowy fields. However, the Panzers had been decisively beaten and took further losses as they fell back in panic.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img909/1364/kkdIR1.jpg[/image]
[3]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/4079/n1KQzK.jpg[/image]
(Soviet tanks moving past a knocked out German Marder SP gun)

At the same time, 1 and 2 Tank Armies struck and again losses on both sides were high but this time 48 Panzer Corps was forced to fall back to escape encirclement.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/8913/pezRXx.jpg[/image]

Here the Soviet offensive had commenced with a massive salvo from the freshly deployed Katyusha brigades. The capacity to bring massive amounts of firepower to bear in a small sector had proved critical to the Soviet victory.

However, all three tank armies were shattered in the fighting and Soviet formations were intermixed across the 40 km long battlefront. Stavka opted to keep its limited reserve out of action and not try to follow up the hard won victories.

By 7 December, the Ryazan battles died away and Stavka estimated that all the German reserves were fully committed. Stavka ordered Kalinin Front to launch a limited offensive designed to confuse the Germans as to the real focus of the Soviet counter-stroke.

This fell on the northern flank of the Germans pressing at Ryazan. Taking advantage of the frozen Oka, Western Front quickly forced the river and, taken by surprise, the exposed German infantry fell back as Soviet formations pushed 20 km over the Oka and threatened the German rear.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/4618/NUSkdn.jpg[/image]

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/8995/YndGwS.jpg[/image]
(Infantry from Western Front attacking over the Oka)

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img905/521/dUWjgg.jpg[/image]

Rostov

Here the Germans started by launching a series of counter-attacks that drove back some of the over-extended formations from the previous Soviet attacks. However, the Soviet offensive continued and 57 Army finally drove back the Italian formations that had been blocking communications into and out of Rostov

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/6/TZE8tz.jpg[/image]
[4]

The main effort was on the south bank of the Donets and here the mobile formations of the Crimean Front carried on pushing back the various non-German formations. By the 8 December, they had outflanked the German infantry and a massive attack was launched in an effort to over-run this German strongpoint.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/3473/OFhVmg.jpg[/image]

Despite this failure, the Axis lines had been forced back some 30 miles as Crimean Front pressed towards Voroshilovgrad..

The North

Here the Germans had continued the probing attacks of the previous week. They seemed to lack the force to turn localised victories into a major encirclement but were making steady progress towards the rail junctions around Vyshny Volochek.

One concern was that Soviet reconnaissance had indicated the Germans may have pulled some Panzer forces from their Ryazan offensive. If so, it was possible that the Germans still intended to attack Moscow from the north or force the Soviet formations in this sector to pull back eastwards.

Stavka was sufficiently worried to allocate some of the freshly raised divisions to fill out the gaps in Volkhov and North-Western Fronts' formations. If Ryazan had been saved, it might be possible to allocate additional forces in case the Germans made a major effort on this sector.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/6121/85qTgJ.jpg[/image]

OOB

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img910/1391/3JSHeY.jpg[/image]

Losses were again heavy. The Germans lost 33,000 men (8,000 killed), 185 tanks and 170 planes for Soviet losses of 93,000 men (20,000 killed and 20,000 prisoners), almost 600 tanks and 215 planes. The Germans also lost 8,000 trucks and the Soviets 3,000.

[1] Damn, if this had worked I could have put 2 tank armies to completing an encirclement.
[2] Double Damn, at this stage I was really not liking this turn one little bit.
[3] Maybe not such a bad turn after all?
[4] At the third attempt ...



obssesednuker -> RE: Turn 77: 3 – 9 December 1942 (10/20/2015 6:15:39 PM)

Maybe if that opportunity had still been there in January, you would have been able to succeed in achieving an encirclement.

By what time do you think you'll be able to get Red Army 2.0 fully in gear? Mid-'43?



loki100 -> RE: Turn 77: 3 – 9 December 1942 (10/20/2015 6:36:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obssesednuker

Maybe if that opportunity had still been there in January, you would have been able to succeed in achieving an encirclement.

By what time do you think you'll be able to get Red Army 2.0 fully in gear? Mid-'43?


I think unless vigabrand makes a mistake I doubt I'll pull of any encirclements till late 1943. At the moment I simply can't put down a high enough set of CVs to make it impossible for him to break a pocket. That was a good chance as I could have used the woods to double up my defensive scores.

My hope of an early pocket is where I can use the map edge (Baltic, Black or Azov Seas) or very poor terrain to protect my encircling formations.

My heavy losses in September have set me back in the search for Red Army 2.0.

I want to get the on-map army back up to around 7.5m (ie about 300,000 over now). At its crudest that is 30 divisions (300 admin pts to raise). I've a mound of notes as to what to convert and how to reorganise so my Gds Rifle Corps form coherent blocks in my best armies.

I have enough to raise another 20 Gds Corps (over the 10 I have in action at the moment). I suspect I'll get more gds divisions with the 1943 multipliers but not many (this is actually another reason to build up the cadre of rifle divisions).

I have the arms pts to fuel a massive build up of artillery, so the constraint time and again is admin pts for me as of now.

I'm not feeling under too much time pressure, I'm to the west of the Don where it matters (my long centre is behind the Don for safety but I've made enough gains at Rostov and around Tula that I don't think the Germans can risk defending the west bank of the Don, never mind pushing over to the east. That matters as I think it gives me a good chance to reach and cross the Dneipr in the Ukraine over winter 43/44 and I think I can grind west on the Smolensk-Minsk axis at my leisure. My army here has the bulk of the Gds, it doesn't need many mobile assets and the terrain favours being able to attack with say 6 rifle corps, plus artillery, plus specialist engineers and then advance and hold the hex (due to woods etc).

My instinct is that vigabrand has switched targets. He's trying to either cull more divisions in small pockets or make localised geographical gains in order to make me pull back east. Since I am very averse to losing more formations, I'm yielding ground where he attacks and I am weak and shifting my reserves around otherwise. Its an interesting phase to the game, rather cat and mouse and a feeling that the initiative will swap soon.



loki100 -> Turn 78: 10-16 December 1942 (10/22/2015 8:42:31 PM)

Turn 78: 10-16 December 1942

By mid-December, winter conditions prevailed across all of the battle front.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img908/1690/BBFmBp.jpg[/image]

After deliberations, Tolbukhin was promoted to take command of the Voronezh Front. Since this had more armour than any other Soviet formation it would inevitably play a major role in any Soviet offensive [1].

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img908/7900/EOJXcb.jpg[/image]

North

Here the Germans pushed over the Pola near Lake Ilmen as well as making steady gains around Ostashkov. It was not clear if their objective was the rail junction at Bologov. If this fell, communications between Soviet forces at Moscow and those in the north would be badly disrupted.

However, Stavka still feared the Germans would swing east towards Kalinin and try to disrupt the northern part of the Moscow defensive lines. Accordingly, some reserve formations were allocated to reinforce North-Western Front but for the moment Stavka held them back near Bezhetsk where they could react depending on the next moves of the Axis forces.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img908/7586/7JolXb.jpg[/image]

Moscow

Here the German offensive at Ryazan seemed to be over as their armour pulled back. Stavka was content to allow the Soviet armour to rest and reorganise. However, pressure was maintained on their defences by elements of Kalinin Front pushing west and Western Front probing their lines along the Oka.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/518/txOLqa.jpg[/image]
(infantry and armour of Kalinin Front in action)

On the Oka, the Soviets shifted tactics and dropped paratroops behind the German lines to disrupt their communications.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/2333/PSfJwd.jpg[/image]

In the chaos that followed, 13 Army overran elements of 8 Infantry Corps and 4 Army's cavalry disrupted the defensive lines of 9 Corps.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/5486/5Scefj.jpg[/image]

However, given the presence of at least 4, possibly 5, Panzer Corps around Tula, Soviet units did not press their temporary advantage and mostly fell back to their starting positions.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img910/6905/sC7S22.jpg[/image]
(German retreat from their Oka defensive positions)

Rostov

Here, despite the set backs caused by German counter-attacks, Soviet forces kept up the pressure around Rostov.

An attempt by 57 Army to make progress towards the Mius was held by Romanian units.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img911/2553/eRCSvV.jpg[/image]

But this time Stavka ordered the Stalingrad Front to support the offensive. 9 and 19 Armies hit the German defences to the north of the Donets creating a new threat to their defences at Voroshilovgrad.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/166/IXIp4W.jpg[/image]

In turn the mobile formations of the Crimean Front hit their defences south of the Donets. Soviet armour drove back Romanian units inflicting heavy losses. This left the German infantry exposed and a major Soviet attack forced them to fall back with almost 5,000 losses after two days of fighting.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img633/4237/Sqm6CH.jpg[/image]

In the meantime the relentless German bombing of Sevastopol continued as did the VVS' counter-attacks on the Romanian airforce in the Crimea.

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img907/6766/CbLIg6.jpg[/image]

OOB

[image]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img903/4286/eff5Nj.jpg[/image]

Losses reflect the drop in intensity of combat operations [2]. The Germans lost 30,000 men (9,000 killed), 60 tanks and 70 places for Soviet losses of 45.000 men (16,000 killed), 300 tanks and 270 planes [3]


[1] Kirponos was actually one of my better Front commanders at the moment. But Tolbukhin's armour score makes him the best fit for this formation. At least both fronts with the bulk of my Tank Armies now have good commanders. Timoshenko is the next one to be sacked.

[2] I'm happy enough to not push too hard at the moment. 1943 will bring a 10% shift in combat values due to the new morale levels and will help make my weaker sectors much less vulnerable. I also need to build up my army and am trying to avoid any more encirclements.

[3] Had a major disaster in my attempts to hit the German recon assets around Tula.



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